I do  not believe in god or the fables  in the bible, mainly because  there is  no way to prove  any of it.....I therefore  consider  myself  an Atheist...............Since  I have joined  A/N  I have found  many who not only are Non Believers ,like myself, but who criticize ethnic cultures  different  from their own.....As a  Free Thinker, I try to respect  other cultures  that I do not  understand.........There are some strange rituals performed  by some which are perfectly  normal  to them  but  are difficult  for others  to comprehend.....Isn't that  why  people  travel  to different lands to learn  other peoples  customs?.....When we go to their land  should we  try to tell them  that what they are doing  is wrong and should  be  forbidden?  Absolutely not,  unless you do not value  your life............My point is that being an Atheist should only be  related to not Believing  in Theism.....Why are  so many of us  trying  to tell others  with  different  ethnic  backgrounds  how they should  live their lives........I am particularly referring  to the procedure done  to infant  boys  of the Jewish culture known as circumcision......It has been accepted  in the Jewish culture and performed  for thousands  of years.....Yet many consider  it a form of torture without  acknowledging  the fact it is  a common  procedure for Jews......Today, some Jews  are  questioning  it.....That is their right.....Others do not have that right  to  tell a Jew  what  they can and should  do......It is  something  that has  to be  decided  within  the Jewish  Community..........It is like  calling a Black the N word which  is  very demeaning and yet  some  call their own  kind  the N word  but it is ok.......Respect for another's  culture  is the only way  we can  all get along  and live  together.......Being  an Atheist does not give us the right  to disrespect rituals  performed by others and to cast  judgement  on them......  

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I wonder if he will even bother with this FACT. He hasn't addressed any of the others in a single meaningful way. I say we consider the act as a sexual violation, a sex crime, due to the effects the procedure permanently has on the boys sex life.

You are either misinformed(which I doubt because you have already been corrected), or you are simply lying here. The foreskin is densely packed with active nerves, so your argument just couldn't get more dishonest.

Freethinker could be misinformed, lying, denying, deluding, or deceiving himself. Does it really matter? The effect is the same. We have enough information to know how Freethinker thinks, and that is enough evidence to know him better. Would I ask him for advice? No! Would I trust his judgement? No! It isn't what he thinks but how he thinks that gives me the information I need.

Imagine that well into the universe again. You are in one well, Freethinker is in another well, I am in a separate well. We each live a separate well into the universe. What he does in his well gives us information about how he thinks and makes his decision. You and I, in our own well, think and behave differently than he does. 

Now, we have several options:

☐ Give him evidence that supports our position, which we already have done. 

☐ Respond, depending on how he responds. 

☐ If he understands the point we try to convey, problem solved. 

☐ If he disagrees with the point we try to convey, agree to disagree. 

☐ The subject with him is at a dead end. 

☐ Develop a plan to inform younger generations so that they can give thought to the evidence. 

There is really no point in continuing on this subject with him. It just becomes a shouting match, a fist fight, or a lot of hot air polluting the air and preventing further discussions on other matters. 

So, for me, I am signing off on this discussion. There are many other things to focus on that have a possibility of having a better outcome. 

I agree that this discussion has used up its share of bandwidth and had clearly proven it's not leading anywhere constructive.

This post, man, this pure denial that there is even a problem.

Yay

I'm going to stuff the ballot box with three Yays from Me, Myself, and I. 

Yay! Knowing men are robbed of pleasure from circumcision, how could any empathetic woman agree with this procedure?

I will leave some time for others to answer the poll. In the meantime I will define my terms for those who care to understand them.

It is well established in law that acting on someone without proper informed consent, even if they are incapable of that consent, is a violation of their basic rights. When a woman is drunk, it is still rape. When the mentally disabled are forced into contracts, the contracts are illegal and void, and deemed fraud. ETC.

The removal of the foreskin destroys 83% of the sensation of the penis, permanently rendering sex less pleasurable, with the added bonus of removing a piece of the penis known to actually stimulate the vagina(hence the popularity of ribbed condoms). This is a violation of the persons sexual rights if done without their express consent. All violation of a persons personal sexual rights is intolerable, it should not, and cannot be allowed in any society which values sexual rights.

The violation is sexual in nature, modifying and permanently disfiguring the genitalia without consent is an innately sexual action, therefore a sex crime. When it is done to a child, it is a sex crime perpetrated against a child, which could easily be construed as a form of pedophilia. Also, unnecessarily maiming the genitalia is actually worse than merely touching it, making their crime possibly greater than a regular pedophiles.

All this and he wants me to respect his right to do it? Pure insanity.

http://www.jta.org/2013/03/19/news-opinion/united-states/european-d...

England does not support circumcision.

The reason? A paper published that used objective data to prove that cutting the penis doesn't only impair the mans pleasure, but the womans as well!

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1464-410x.1999.0830s10...

20000 nerves compared to the mere 4000 in the tip, that is a 500% increase in nerves, I would hardly call a mere 83% rise in pleasure simply a statistic, it is a fact. You might have a right to your own opinion, but you do NOT have a right to your own special facts.

Minority? Most Christians do the exact same thing! I take them to task for it too, routinely. It just doesn't fly here because you are making what is basically a religious excuse for an inhumane action.

In the end, this whole thread is a run around. You confuse your right to practice your culture and tradition, with your right to make someone(a freaking baby) adhere to it. What you want isn't a right, its the ability to do whatever you want despite the consequences for another party. Your right to swing your fist ends at someone elses nose, likewise, your right to chop off penis skin stops at your own. Don't confuse the issue with your heritage or culture, for none of that matters to the issue, it would be wrong no matter who or what you where.

I can't say if I really care if you play the persecution card, but you would look ridiculous if you do, because I would just as likely condemn any other party(even an atheist) for the same action. We have backed up our arguments with provable logical principles and facts, you have only responded with cultural zeal and denial of all the evidence because of attachment. In the end, there is not one thing I could possibly say to make you look worse than you already do because of this exchange, so I will wait for your move.

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