How many people interested in ethics here put their ethics where their plate is, Whilst The religious masses have an excuse for eating the flesh of our fellow mammals and other species, What is your excuse!!!! ( unless of course you are already Vegan)...

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I think this is something that vegans should be more aware of: it takes economic privilege to be extremely selective about what you eat. It is cheap to cook a big pot of lentils and rice, but only if you have the cooking equipment and the time. The working poor don't always have either, and people who get food from charities or food donations aren't able to be choosy either.

Vegan food is more available now than previously, though, there is more awareness of it (vegetarian meat is very mainstream anymore)...and it seems to be in vogue right now. I don't know if that means it's a fad for most people or if it's a larger change.

Does it have to be a matter of signing a waver to eat a certain way forever and ever? I feel like that's setting some people up for failure.

I mostly eat veg food but I don't see the benefits of wasting food. In sharing a household with people (and with my work it's kind of like being part of two households) it amounts to wasting food quite a lot.

Being that there are so many ethical issues to consider, most people find the ethical issues that they consider the most important and focus on them. I know of a vegan couple who has four children, for example. If they're  only  vegan for animal rights/ health and have no environmental motivation for it, then I guess it's not hypocritical.

I can't see anything ethical about having 4 children, regardless of what you eat. The fundamental root of ALL our ecological problems is overpopulation, and if we were at, say, 1 billion instead of 7 billion, we wouldn't have to worry about fishing out the seas, or destroying habitat or using up the world's energy resources, etc. No amount of veganism or any other "conservation" activities are going to solve that problem.

And I'm not at all convinced that veganism is at all a healthy diet -- in order to get the protein you need, you have to eat a LOT of fruits, vegetables and grains, and where is the land to produce them going to come from when pretty much all the arable land on earth is ALREADY being used. The grassland that feeds cattle, for example, can't be converted to farmland, because it doesn't have the characteristics necessary for cropland. Better to get the population down, and let the land go back to prairie and live off the bison who developed there naturally!

Ethical reasons? All of us, both human and animal are born to die -- if the aurochs didn't get eaten by humans, it got taken down by a wolf. If humans didn't catch the salmon, they would be eaten by bears. I think it's a false ethic to say that we shouldn't kill and eat animals, when that's what would happen to them anyway.

You think the animals wouldn't have otherwise been born? You're kidding! In pre-modern societies, the grassland teemed with herbivores and the ocean and the oceans boiled with fish. The Inuit ate nothing but meat and fish, and there were NONE of the diseases of modern society among them. There was a reason grandma got left out on the ice -- she wasn't sick; she was just too frail to keep on going. The Native Americans of the Plains ate mostly bison, elk, other herbivores, and a few berries when they were in season. They died of intertribal warfare and accidents, not the sicknesses we die of. Same thing for Neolithic peoples. The real reason for our ecological and health problems of today is overpopulation, not meat eating.

When the agricultural revolution got a good start, people SHRUNK in height and started to die at younger ages. That's proven archaeologically.

That said, I do think you're right that there is a lot of nutritional value in vegetables, and almost none in grains. But we aren't adapted to a completely vegan diet, and grains are, unfortunately, the cheapest and most available part of the vegan diet. People who are too thin have an increased death rate, just as those who are too obese do, but very few have explored the role of carbohydrates in nutrition. A good book on the subject is Good Calories, Bad Calories, by Gary Taubes.

And if it's OK for a wolf to eat an herbivore, it's OK for me, because we're both animals, and ethics has nothing to do with it; nutrition does.

I have no children with my wife and we have been partners for over 15 years. We have one car that gets 45MPG and wear my clothes until they fall off me. 

  It is not justifiable to put the pressures on the environment that dairy and meat farming do. Not to mention the massive strain animal product consumption puts on the health system. It is mostly only wealthy first world people that rely on meat for protein, Poor people do with out it. Just because something will ultimately die is no reason to eat it. I bet that would go down pretty poorly in a murder trial.

   Eating of meat and consumption of dairy represents a barbaric past that we had to evolve through, but now we are in a situation where we can do better we nned to. If not for animal rights then for other humans and the environment. Every ounce of fat you a carry is a representation of your own greed....

My wife and I live at the bottom rung of society in terms of income. It is cheaper to eat Vegan, I can guarantee you. It is just a lot blander than a dairy/meat diet. Most of by nest meals for two cost less than one serve of meat for one person.....

I met a guy this summer for whom 90% of his diet was sprouts, both dark and light profiles. But he was so skinny you could practically see through him... He reckoned he spent 150/m on sprouts, it can be extremely cheap, if you're reliably at home for two drainings a day. He buys his sprouts online in bulk.

not bad....but you have to be more diverse than that in order to cover the full range of beneficial photo chemicals. you must be careful not to consume incomplete proteins without a complement of additional amino acids from others. The easiest way is to consume a diverse range of what is available in your area. I make a nice pumpkin/carrot/sweatpotato/lental curry which I then put on a bed of brown rice. The big problem with a lot of vegans is they don't put in the research. You need to have a basic understanding of nutrition. Take a sublingual b12 tablet twice a week. You have to make it sustainable or else you will not stick to it and your health will suffer. Just like with normal diets it is possible to be an unhealthy vegan, But if you are sensible it as also possible to reverse a lot of health issues you had by going on a good Vegan diet. Any fat you have been trying to loose for years will start to disappear because its much more difficult to consume excessive calories. One of the best ways to really get the benefit of a vegan low fat diet is to eliminate gluten, This eliminates most junk food off your menu. 

Well he did have a variable 10% to play with.

This is exactly the trap that most people fall into. Say you are 85kg and therefore need about 80g of protein a day. If you only get 30g in 90% of your calorie intake then you don't have enough calorie allowance in the last 10% to even get your 50g extra protein and you would need to be looking at 90 - 100% protein sources. You need to set protein, RDI (vit / mins) and calorie target first and then choose your diet based on that.

But how many humans want to do math when they're simply hungry? We're not all math obsessed like ourselves! :)

You only need to be obsessed at our level of debate. Once a good template for a particular communities wellbeing is found you apply it in recipes etc.

It is actually much easier for poor people,  One major reason for this is that it brings you back to basics. Mostly no refrigeration is required and there are a lot of good dried sources that can be purchased in bulk. One of the best things about being vegan is the simplicity, Most complex junk foods are off the menu. Most poor people are much better at making meals from scratch that the wealthy people of convenience. However I agree in general that a simple plan is required. It is my intention to develop a cheap 2500 calorie general ration pack that would be a survival and introduction pack, combined with simple recipes and storage advice.




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