How many people interested in ethics here put their ethics where their plate is, Whilst The religious masses have an excuse for eating the flesh of our fellow mammals and other species, What is your excuse!!!! ( unless of course you are already Vegan)...

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You are being ridiculously self-centred. Your typical american arrogance is showing through. If you think those little areas in your wealthy country are an excuse for murder you are a fool. There is a broader world out side your borders. Your entire society is supported by war, throw some of that money at those communities. I am actually worried about people that need to be worried about, not americans. Do you not see the american self-centred mentality displayed in posting a map of just your country?

My point is that no one in america is under threat of starvation due to lack of meat. It is in fact cheaper to get your protein from legumes etc. but in any case I am sure you could by a 20kg bag of rice and feed your del for quite a while. But there are other countries that are in actual starvation situation. they do not drop cows from the sky to these people, they drop rice and grains etc.

So you are telling me in those communities meat is cheaper than beans?

One vegan to another, it's time for me to stop holding your hand and let you figure this out for yourself: shaming the least powerful members of society (and no, we don't have power here, or the assholes who control the place wouldn't be continually destroying everyone's lives) is not going to help.  The problem isn't that individuals know what they need to do and are refusing.

Believe me I have worked over 15 jobs, lived in 17 different places and been on high incomes to low incomes. I have been unemployed, A poor student, Also a self financed motorcycle racer. To top it all off I have been a drug addict and a fisherman. I know what of I speak and the evils perpetrated by me and in my name. It is you my friend that has a lot more to learn. I wager you are a young person and as such may feel optimism for society, I feel only contempt as I have witnessed many lifestyles and many socio economic conditions. I accept no excuses from the ignorant once they have the information, Government is just a reflexion of society, sure on some angles you might not like the reflection, but it is what it is. People are mostly generally stupid, maybe with a talent here or there, but at least in the top 5% of society (atheists) I expect more. This is why I expect anyone educated enough to see the falacy of religion and other forms of indoctrination to also see the ethical famine in our own cultures.

My ideals are how most of the third world live until the first world start marketing filthy food to them.

Do you you drink.....what type of car do you use. Do you use technology for as long as you can before recycling it. Do you monitor your power consumption in your home. There are many more luxuries that people have and use than the choice of a vegan diet. We cook all our own food and grow what we can in pots as well. I recycle all scraps in a worm farm. You can't just throw your arms in the air and say its all to hard........A rational person takes control of their needs in order of priority, food then shelter. While the irrational just lives a life of mayhem and maddens then eats what ever the hell they can. Food must come last. In the future you will be forced through economics to eat Vegan anyway, If you think 2 billion chinese can eat like americans your crazy, we would need 5 earths for that. I have seen the price of meat go up dramatically and once a carbon tax is introduced world wide meat will reflect more of the true cost it has on the environment....

That is a myth, You can eat for much less if you avoid junk food. what costs money is the transition diets people put them selves on and the non essentials they purchase. Take the winging pessimist who says they have no money for food while puffing on a smoke. Or the person complaining about inadequate health care whilst drinking alcohol. Many people waste half of there money on not only excessive protein, but excessive nutritionally empty calories. You can live on a lot less than you think, It is the dietary indoctrination you must break. My wife and I are far healthier than all of our extended family. It is pure diet and lifestyle choices not genetics in that situation. I learn't how not to live in my twenties and have spent the last decade repairing my body, mind and empathy.

I simply don't agree with you. The natural world has evolved so that some animals eat other animals. We, and our closest cousins, the chimpanzees are natural meat eaters, and my ethics say that as long as you give the animal as merciful a death as possible, there is no harm in eating meatl If you care for the animals humanely, there is nothing wrong with eating eggs or drinking milk. If herbivores in the wild get eaten by carnivores, why do we have to be any different?

Well, vegan means not eating animal products at all, not just meat, and we CAN'T live that way. We have to get vitamin B-12 from somewhere! I have heard that B-12 can be processed from yeast, but then you have to answer whether you consider a fungus to be a plant or an animal, when scientifically it hasn't been classified as either. With those little unicellular things, the answers are not so clear-cut, and yet, to be a consistent vegan, you HAVE to answer an unanswerable question.

I am vegan and I supplement with b12. I think b12 derived from bacteria is a lot more ethical than b12 from a sentient mammal. How can you compare a bacteria to a sentient mammal.It is pretty obvious as a vegan where to draw the line and that is a what is possible. It is possible to produce b12 from bacteria and intact no b12 supplements come from complex animals. It is pretty obvious that bacteria are much more fitting to consume than complex life. The point is that for what reason would you wan't to kill yourself by eating animal products. No good comes from it. You will die a lot earlier and probably live over weight.

Well, interestingly enough, when I got serious about diet last year, and eliminated bread, potatoes, pasta, rice, cereal, corn and peas, and increased my meat and vegetable intake, my cholesterol numbers plunged (last labs: HDL 65, LDL 90, VLDL 15, triglycerides 77, and total cholesterol 170. WAY better than when I was eating high-carb, low-nutrition grains. And I LOST 30 lb. down to BMI 23.7, which is well within the normal weight range. And I'm never ravenously hungry -- only eat small amounts when I AM hungry -- maybe twice a day. So your last sentence is patently false.

This is only a temporary gain, This is created by forcing your body to increase its resting metabolism as it converts protein into energy and because in general your energy sources are low you will metabolise fat. This is well studied and debunked as a poor strategy for weight loss. The atkins diet achieved the same temporary gains, He died at a young age. Using a high protein low carb diet is stupid. Carbs are a source of energy, protein a raw materials source, Relying on the inefficient derivation of energy from protein and fat stores is a silly way to maintain a healthy weight, It may be a method of metabolising fats in the body, but is far from an optimal way of maintaining a body. I personally don't consume many grains as I am not a fan of gluten and its poor digestion. But the key is not to pick on one food source, you need to look at the overall nutrition per calorie of your diet. If you don't count calories and protein intake as well as fats and micronutrients, then you are not applying the science to your diet that you claim to apply to atheism...

   What happens when your body runs out of fat reserves? You will either need to up your protein intake and rely on the inefficient derivation of energy from that or up your carbs. I would also point out that protein levels should always be kept below around one gram / kg of body weight as other wise you will just be feeding and cancer you may have in your body. Considering that some cancers have been know to exist for decdes prior to diagnosis this is a concern.




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