Arguing politics with right wingers is like arguing with creationists

Everything they say is based on beliefs, not evidence.  They seem to have no interest in an honest discussion of the facts.  Instead they hang on to their naive ideologies like "Freedom" and "govt is incapable and corrupt".  I hate taxes as much as the next guy, but sometimes the best solution is a public solution.


For right wingers, the only solution is a capitalistic solution - everything else is "socialist".


Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions on tactics that might get these people to open thier minds just a little bit?

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Nice to meet you too. I prefer to keep my politics to myself honestly. However I do dislike being pigeonholed into a certain political corner based on my atheism. We're a diverse bunch.
I quite honestly don't give a damn about being pigeon holed. I am what I am and don't want to change, I find it great to be amongst diverse people. My main aim is to make people realise that they have been lied to by religion. I cringe whenever I hear someone claim that God is their guide. Or whenever in the midst of a discussion I get the pitiful look or statement that I need to be saved, followed by a quotation from that book. Human rights is my main interest, exposing there abuse is my work each day.
good for you Patricia. I'm glad your fighting the good fight. There are so few that have the guts to do what you do! Thank you for your efforts.

Re economic systems, and capitalism specifically, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I would abandon it for a different system, but I just don't think we should put it on an altar and make burnt offerings to it. I also think we should regulate the hell out of it.

by the way, sorry, about in advertently placing you in Ireland. Scotland sounds wonderful, bad weather and all.
I can recommend Scotland to the world, have walked many of its hills and glens. We are currently having a lot of wind and gales, and the temperature has dropped, my poor wee garden is suffering, but I wouldn't leave it I love living here and I have a happy wee existence, people still care in our village and that keeps me well contented. I honestly cannot understand why people want to be rich and bring all the hassle of keeping up with the Jones's on themselves. I own nothing, have few luxuries and can live a life free from stress. I don't go out to pubs clubs or socialise much these days except for my online friends, but that is my choice. I help my boys out when they need me to with their business and love mixing with the young people they teach, get a real buzz from that. I am a simple person and I feel the pain of suffering in the world keenly, but I have corns to that must not be stepped upon, the current political coalition in London is stepping on those corns and making my fellow human beings suffer for their gambling, I cannot sit back and say nothing.
By the way my grandparents came from Northern Ireland so you weren't far out after all.
Is it inspired by Satanism or something? They love to do things backwards upside down. Hahah

It is because he is from Australia, it probably looks right-side up to those who live in the southern hemisphere.
Why would your thoughts not impress Felch?
Bill, You made reference, a little ways back, to the unquestioned BS being circulated - and particularly by email. Personally, I think it has possibly been the single biggest tool for funneling massive amounts of misinformation, and just plain crap, into the heads of the credulously challenged there is.

Tea baggers are still trying to raise totally stupid sh*t to the level of serious political discussion - crap that got planted in their heads by phoney email campaigns that you think would have died out at least a year ago.

"Obama wasn't even born (ed) in America."
"O_____'s never produced a birth certificate."
"O_____'s etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam"

This is the almost subterranean grass roots level that these people are being reached at.

That, and the compelling closer: "If you just don't care about your country, Delete this. Otherwise, send it to . . . " You get people who equate forwarding faux patriotic bullshit, with critical thinking, and political activism.

And least we fail to notice, once you get 'em to hit 'Forward,' you've already engaged their cognitive dissonance - and like Fred's indicating, they'll argue the point forever.

I just recently received a little racist 'joke' from my brother. I simply replaced the original image, with a 'white trash' version I was able to Google, and sent it back to him.

I have noticed myself, though, that - as Patricia has indicated - a little in-your-face refutation of idiotic positions, goes a long way towards getting some to realize they've been riding on an idiotic bandwagon. And at least some tend to get off. (No . . . people - Don't even go there !)
D R, I don't mean to pick on you, but I've noticed that an incorrect definition of "cognitive dissonance" seems to be spreading. Cognitive dissonance is the uncomfortable feeling you get from trying to hold mutually exclusive ideas as simultaneously true. It's not the act of holding mutually exclusive ideas as simultaneously true. If people had more cognitive dissonance, they would be more likely to examine the conflicting ideas and reject one or both. Not noticing or not caring about the conflict is the problem with uncritical thinkers.

But I agree it is truly amazing and discouraging how tenacious thoroughly debunked nonsense memes can be. You see this constantly from creationists, global-warming deniers, free market fundamentalists, right-wingnuts, etc. There's always another rube who hasn't seen or doesn't believe the debunking. Personally, I think all internet browsers and email programs should automatically search for debunked ideas and link to the relevant article. Sort of like anti-malware software, but for brains.
That's a capitol idea, Jason, about auto-linking to a factual source of rebuttal for some of these BS issues.

While I know that cognitive dissonance is the psychological discomfort experienced, it also, I believe, kicks in very early - and completely below conscious levels of cognition, and can result in unquestioned support for positions they've previously given assent to - in order to avoid, or escape from, even having to confront the dissonance.

At least, that is the meaning I am attempting to infer. Would that be a totally incorrect definition, or merely definition #n?

I, of course, defer to your more knowledgeable understanding.
D R, I see what you're saying about the possibility that cognitive dissonance kicks in at a subconscious level, leading a person to avoid even investigating the uncomfortable logical discrepancy, but I'm pretty sure cognitive dissonance (discordant thinking) occurs at a conscious level and drives a person emotionally to resolve the conflict, by rejecting one or both of the incompatible ideas. If you are in a state of cognitive dissonance, you are motivated to do something about it. I think most people who believe mutually exclusive things simply live in ignorant bliss, unaware that their ideas don't mesh. Perhaps we need a better word for that state. Ignorance doesn't quite cut it. Unenlightened, perhaps. Unaccountably unconflicted, maybe.
It's more than that,generally. Conservatives are in very specific business niches - real estate(including construction), agriculture, natural resource extraction (mining,petroleum,timber, etc.) where as "Liberals" are concentrated in the "high value" sectors - computers, biotechnology, and yes finance. It shouldn't surprise anyone that I-bankers overwhelmingly backed Obama, or Tony Blair, they *NEED* innovative companies to invest in, and as you pointed out, innovative companies thrive under "liberal" administrations.

BUT, the prosperity of those companies is not very broad, sure the investors, founders, the people employed in those industries and the communities in which those companies are located in are going to do extraordinarily well, but what about the *other* America, Palin's America?

Why would an individual investor, or *commercial* bank invest in small businesses in Wassila Alaska if they can buy into the next Google at $0.75/share? It's currently trading at 450.20/share

Why invest in Wally-Mart,The Real America's largest employee, or Insurance company annuities(sold by cold-calling ditto heads) if you can invest in the next generation of broad-spectrum wireless? Sure it's risky, but that's why you can get a 312% return in 9 months, instead of 3.25-6.15 APR.

Right wingers really do suck at capitalism.... socialism... monarchism.. er okay, they just suck :D :D :D
Bill, You're right about misinformation being sent around by both sides.

It's just that the rabid right seems to embrace the unconscionable cynicism necessary, to fully ply the trade of out and out lies.

From Fox News, on down through the tea baggers, to the false emailing campaigns we're talking about, they simply get away with plying the ethics of game theory - where 1st liar doesn't stand a chance - and intellectual honesty is something that, frankly, they're only too glad to let 'liberals' constrain themselves with.

And the fact that we tend to demand honest facts for our arguments, leaves us at a clear disadvantage when encountering Glenn Beckian bubbling BS.


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