Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by AcesLucky on May 23, 2010 at 8:20am

The states have absolutely no right to regulate immigration.

I don't think they're tying to regulate immigration, I think they're trying to control immigration into the state.

(Notwithstanding that for the last 20 years we invited them here for the cheap labor, but now that the Right Wing is waging a race war (heard Limbaugh lately?) it is consistent with the strategy to carefully delineate "them" vs "us." You should hear McCain's new campaign ad. It ends with a border officer saying to McCain, "you're one of us." You see, the Hispanics tend to overwhelmingly vote Democratic! Getting the picture now?)

So, they're not worried about the lost money. They're worried about losing the state to more progressive (liberal) voters. Arizona is a Republican state.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Carlos Guerra on May 23, 2010 at 9:45pm

I live in Arizona, near the Mexican border. I do not support the law but I do understand the support for the law in the state. Unless you live here, I don't think you have any real understanding of the problem. Moreover, if you take the trouble to look, the state of California already has a nearly identical law on its books and has had the law for over ten years. Check out California Penal Code 834b and then compare with Arizona SB1070.

I suspect that the State of Arizona is going to catch a lot of flack for this law. But, if I recall correctly, the states of Texas and New Mexico are contemplating similar legislation.

If you lived in this part of the world (I live in rural Arizona about 25 miles from the border), I suspect that you would better understand the problem and the wide sympathy for passing the law.

First, most of the illegals are good people; they are in this country simply to find work. But, the people who smuggle them into the U.S. (called coyotes) are among the most ruthless, heartless bastards you will ever want to not encounter.

Almost all of the border between Mexico and the U.S. is desert; really hot, harsh desert. A lot of the coyotes will get a group of immigrants across the border, just, and then tell them to walk 2 hours or so to where a car will be waiting. Most of the time there is no car so the group is doomed to wander the desert until they either die or are picked up by either the border patrol, the county sheriff, the police force of the Tono O'odham nation or by the National Park service. Usually when they are found, they are in poor shape and need hospitalization. Medical service for illegals is not paid by the federal government, it is paid by the taxpayers of Arizona. The annual bill amounts to millions.

Many illegals die in trying to cross the border. A few summers ago, there were over 500 recorded deaths between May and October; these were just the bodies that were found. Nobody knows how many bodies (or bones) are still waiting to be found but at least 10 a month are reported by hikers, hunters and off-road enthusiasts. The bodies that are found require official action from the sheriff; first to determine whether it is an illegal and if it is, to find the next of kin.

Another problem is that the illegals leave huge amounts of trash and abandoned water bottles, clothes and packs in their wake. A jeep club went to one area and picked up twelve tons from an area of about 40 acres. They start forest fires while trying to keep warm at night. They will break into houses to steal food and water. They kill livestock to cook for meals. Recently, a local rancher with a history of kindness to illegals was shot and killed by one. They cut fences for passage; hell, I have had my fence cut several times. If they are actually met by a vehicle, they are required to leave all their possessions at the pickup point where they are packed like cattle into a van or a rental truck. Their possessions make for more trash and the overloaded vans are a major road hazard. Hundreds of illegals per year are killed or injured in rollover accidents due to overloading. Some of the car crashes take Arizonans as well as illegals. A lot of illegals earn their passage by carrying drugs into the U.S. And, a lot of the smugglers rape their female clients and rob both male and female clients.

The Border Patrol does its best to slow the influx. But, because of federal policy, the Patrol is restricted to "catch and release" . Illegals are caught, held temporarily and then returned to Mexico by bus for another try; this time with more experience. Basically, the federal government does not really do too much to stop the flow; I don't think the Washington crowd cares all that much. Politicians from both sides of the aisle respond to payolla from lobbyists from the agricultural lobby, the construction industry, the landscaping industry, the hospitality industry and the meat packing industry and do little to stem the flow. At the same time, the federal government provides little or no assistance to the states along the Mexican border for the expenses they incur.

So, in essence, the taxpayers of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California are subsidizing the rest of the nation so they can save money on food, on having their lawn mowed, so they can have cheap boned chicken or beef, so they can save a few buck on a house and so they can have clean sheets and towels at a motel.

The law in Arizona passed because many Arizonans are getting tired of paying more than their fair share of the costs of illegal immigration. The law will cost Arizonans more in law enforcement but at least the state government listens to them; the federal government sure doesn't.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by AcesLucky on May 24, 2010 at 8:01am

You don't have to explain. I do live here. I live in Chandler and have seen the place mushroom with Hispanics, including the loud mariachi on weekends down the damn street. I do not like it.

My wife does not like it, and she's half Mexican (mom) and half American Indian (father). I'm black. But immigration in this state has not been a problem since it tipped the scales! Why is that?

Business LOVED the cheap labor. So why now?

The fact is, we LET those people come over here for two strong decades with a wink and a nod -- because it was good for business. Like I said, it is a Republican state, and business is business.

Don't get me wrong, my wife and I are "for" the bill -- but I am for the bill ONLY because I have always seen the problem not as an immigration problem but a SECURITY problem! If these folks can literally walk into our state, what the hell is keeping out the Muslims, oops, 'scuse me, I meant radical Islam?

The whole damn US of A is like a sieve. Arizona is being used as a "us" against "them" type of platform when it should be the whole USA keeping out undocumented PEOPLE, as opposed to undocumented Mexicans.

So why suddenly now? Ans: the color of the population is 'a changing, and so is the vote. And we can't allow that now, can we? We had our own little NAFTA, and its coming back to haunt the powers that be.

On a side note: What is hell is our former Governor doing heading Homeland Security? I used to lambaste Bush for his cronyism putting incompetent people in important positions. What the hell is Janet doing there? She knows NOTHING about keeping American safe. I tell you, the guy every now and then pisses me off.

Okay, I'll get off my box now.

Peace.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Harry Blazer on May 23, 2010 at 8:58am

I realize that what you say is true, but being a resident of Arizona gives me a perspective that the rest of the nation doesn't seem to share.

The bill is more of a statement about the quality of protection that the Federal authorities are providing. We are desperately fed up with the estimated four hundred thousand illegal immigrants in our state. We are inundated daily with the results of their crushing effect on our economy and safety.

I don't think the bill will stand up in court but if it embarrasses the feds to get off their asses and actually be effective in enforcing the existing laws it will have had the desired effect.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by mojo5501 on May 23, 2010 at 2:24pm

And wouldn't you agree that the financial resources of the federal government are necessary to maintain the fences, pay the border guards' salaries, carry out the complex regulations, etc etc. Politically, this is a jobs bill initiative in itself! Stable jobs with good federal benefits.

Geographic proximity to Mexico being as it is, Arizona laws and federal immigration laws have to work in a synchronized way to reduce illegal immigration and provide a path to citizenship or to work visas that are effective and sensitive to multi-ethnic communities and Hispanic families...perhaps dual citizenship could be introduced where workers could pay reduced taxes. Companies that hire a workforce of employees with dual citizenship need to be monitored closely. Transparency is the key. And criminal gangs (of all nationalities) need to be seriously addressed by law enforcement agents... swift punishment and incarceration are key components to maintaining public safety.

But local, state, and federal taxes cannot continue to be evaded...illegal immigrants drain the governments' abilities to provide public welfare services at all three levels: local, state, and federal. There can be no "free ride". Companies that are found to hire illegal workers need to be penalized so that they stop abusing "cheap labor" and pay their fair share of taxes, as well!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Charles on May 24, 2010 at 12:21am

I support the bill.The thing is these people come to the United States and demand rights as citizens.Can a citizen of the US go into Mexico and demand rights?No,They would be tossed in jail.Our government won't do a damn thing.At least Arizona has some balls to do what is right.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Abnormal on May 26, 2010 at 10:38am

I'm not sure. I think this bill could lead to racial profiling what happens when someone who say isn't white doesn't have an ID on them can a cop just ask them for their papers for not doing anything other than being Hispanic?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Zachary on May 27, 2010 at 10:18pm

Wasn't this county founded by immigrants? I think that anyone should be allowed to become a citizen if they want to put in the effort to learn the 100 possible questions about the united states. The solution to our immigration "problem" is to make them citizens. I believe in a world government, that's just my view.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Lyllogism on June 2, 2010 at 9:33pm

First two relevant bits from the United States Constitution and then my analysis.

Section 8 - Powers of Congress
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization...

----
Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

----
If a state does not threaten the Rule of Naturalization declared by congress then it would seem it may indeed enforce penalties against those who have not qualified for citizenship through the process decided on by congress. Since the Constitution does not give congress sole responsibility for enforcing immigration law but rather only the establishment of an uniform Rule of Naturalization.

I do not believe this bill will be overturned since it was purposefully modeled on current federal law.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Bradley Keene on June 3, 2010 at 2:42am

I understand all of the Arizonian points of view and agree with them wholeheartedly, and I'd like to offer my view as an outsider (I live in SC, where we have some immigrant problems, but nowhere near yours):

Crossing the border into the United States and working without so much as a student visa is illegal. Most illegal immigrants are Hispanic. Therefore, in a state suffering from the results of far too much illegal immigration, it only makes sense to improve the law to allow for a tighter grip on the problem. Is it an ideal solution? No. I'm sure it feels horrible to be a legal Hispanic citizen of Arizona, but just because a new law is unsatisfactory to you doesn't mean it isn't important.

So, with my admittedly limited knowledge of the situation, there's my layman's point of view.

• ▶ Reply