I just wanted to see how many different kinds of people we got going on this site :D

Just give a holler and let everyone know what area you represent!


I'm from Brampton, but for the sake of simplicity I'll say Toronto! WOO!

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Hello Fahad Ahmad. As someone who has experienced the abuses that occur when religion and government are combined, you are in an excellent position to explain it to others. Here in Canada, a moderate muslim MP, Fatima Houda-Pepin  has broken ranks with the Liberal Party in Quebec over the PQ's attempt to introduce a Secular Charter of Rights that would establish more robust barriers between the state and religion.

The PQ are being pummelled by the other parties as being racist and intolerant and want to allow people to wear fundamentalist symbols when working as public employees. It is people like you and Fatima, who have experienced the abuses when fundamentalists enjoy too much tolerance, that can explain the need for a democratic government to balance this tolerance with a duty to protect its citizens from fundamentalism.

You're right, Peter.

We here need to google/bing/etc <pakistan constitution> and see its opening lines as a warning.

Hello, Fahad.

I suspect most of us who are atheists get the concept of repetition and its influence both on the brain in general and in background attitudes in particular.  It's meant to stick an idea in your consciousness to the point where you take it for granted, like it was always there and a part of you.  The problem, of course, is that it's a real chore to get it OUT.

Which is why some of us (me very much included) consider that INDOCTRINATION.  Also, consider the following:

Christianity alters your identity to insure the survival of ITSELF.
-- from Prplfox's video series - http://ning.it/R2isGS

Check me on this, but I suspect the same could be said of Islam, or ANY proselytizing religion.

Preamble To Pakistan's constitution

Whereas sovereignty over the entire Universe belongs to Almighty Allah alone, and the authority to be exercised by the people of Pakistan within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust;

And whereas it is the will of the people of Pakistan to establish an order :-

Wherein the State shall exercise its powers and authority through the chosen representatives of the people;

Wherein the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice, as enunciated by Islam, shall be fully observed;

Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah;

Wherein adequate provision shall be made for the minorities freely to profess and practise their religions and develop their cultures;

Wherein the territories now included in or in accession with Pakistan and such other territories as may hereafter be included in or accede to Pakistan shall form a Federation wherein the units will be autonomous with such boundaries and limitations on their powers and authority as may be prescribed;

Therein shall be guaranteed fundamental rights, including equality of status, of opportunity and before law, social, economic and political justice, and freedom of thought, expression, belief, faith, worship and association, subject to law and public morality;

Wherein adequate provision shall be made to safeguard the legitimate interests of minorities and backward and depressed classes;

Wherein the independence of the judiciary shall be fully secured;

Wherein the integrity of the territories of the Federation, its independence and all its rights, including its sovereign rights on land, sea and air, shall be safeguarded;

So that the people of Pakistan may prosper and attain their rightful and honoured place amongst the nations of the World and make their full contribution towards international peace and progress and happiness of humanity :

Now, therefore, we, the people of Pakistan,

Cognisant of our responsibility before Almighty Allah and men;

Cognisant of the sacrifices made by the people in the cause of Pakistan;

Faithful to the declaration made by the Founder of Pakistan, Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah, that Pakistan would be a democratic State based on Islamic principles of social justice;

Dedicated to the preservation of democracy achieved by the unremitting struggle of the people against oppression and tyranny;

Inspired by the resolve to protect our national and political unity and solidarity by creating an egalitarian society through a new order;

Do hereby, through our representatives in the National Assembly, adopt, enact and give to ourselves, this Constitution.


as a member of the minorities and backward and depressed classes, I am most impressed;  The women of Pakistan must be so happy with this equality of status before the law!

a democratic State based on Islamic principles of social justice

Say WHAT?  Since when does Islam or ANY religion for that matter have ANYTHING to do with democracy?  Where does it talk about one man, one vote in the quran?

Therein shall be guaranteed fundamental rights, including equality of status, of opportunity and before law, social, economic and political justice, and freedom of thought, expression, belief, faith, worship and association, subject to law and public morality;

So I have the freedom to leave Islam if it no longer works for me, right? I DON'T?!? But the constitution says, right there...!

Man ... I don't know who they thought they were kidding when they wrote that mess...

Fahad I don't think it is wise for someone to leave messages on sites like this who plan to travel to places like Iran and Pakistan. There are numerous examples of Canadian citizens who have travelled back to Iran and been arrested. Some have been murdered and there was nothing the Canadian government could do to help.

is this why they behead atheist bloggers?

Strong atheist

Walnut Creek CA


One may think so, Eric.

I used to live in Concord CA.  Next door neighbor to Walnut Creek.

Eric & Elaine...We miss you .

There are plenty of freethinkers out here but few as good as you, Silvia.



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