Both my wife and I are both ethical Vegans, We both find in disturbing how few people within the atheist community don't see the dietary indoctrination that surrounds us in the same way that they do Religious dogma. In some ways the two are often very related.....


Discussion please:




Vegan Ape

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Replies to This Discussion

well that you could care less about 99% of what you call idiots dying early isn't doing much for your caring for all animals ideology....

Also I think you have your figures wrong about 99% of humans knowing about Paris Hilton's sex life.

The ones that will drop off the genetic line are those who don't have kids - I suppose...

If the science says that our digestive system is semi adapted to deal with sporadic meat - why don't you eat meat sporadically?

So what is the diet that we should all be on?  Because you still haven't said exactly what we are meant to eat according to your highly educated vegan science.

If the science says that our digestive system is semi adapted to deal with sporadic meat - why don't you eat meat sporadically?

 Because people eat for taste and cultural reasons rather than nutrition, paying no attention to actual body requirements. Most people don't even know what their energy intake is. Even if people do know they don't usually know what protein intake they need nor pay any attention to RDI fit min intake. In evolutionary terms we would have come across meat gradually after being much more plant based and adapted over time to tolerate it better, but we are nothing like the short intestine of the carnivore. The carnivore also has much lower PH in the gut so is very acidic compared to ours so It can digest meat and bones. The fact that our system buffers B12 for months if not years is indicative of much less frequent meat intake or else why would it evolve that way where as most vegetable derived nutrients are much shorter lives measure in hours not months. As meat was only really used as a cheap shortcut at the expense of longevity I would rather live beyond middle age and will discard the shortcut of meat consumption even on health grounds. Choosing instead to supplement with b12 and Creatine. However I take this route for ethical reasons as well. As I keep saying evolution selects for procreation not life extension beyond productive age. So I don't know why you think there are hidden treasures in following a "paleo" diet.........

So what is the diet that we should all be on?  Because you still haven't said exactly what we are meant to eat according to your highly educated vegan science.

The diet we should  all be on is one which yields maximum nutritional tonnes /  land usage whilst taking into account transport and environment. This means different areas of the globe may use different ingredients to achieve the same diet. A great starter diet for a 70kg women would be as follows per day:

  • 65g complete protein
  • 2500 calories
  • flaxseeds ground fresh and walnuts each day with a selection of other nuts included depending on meal type
  • Probiotic capsual or saurkraut
  • A goal of achieving RDI of fit/min from diet with a backup multivitamin
  • supplement of b12 preferable injection or sublingual depending of absorption efficiency
  • creatine of about 3g creatine monohydrate a day
  • Vitamin D supplement
  • A balance meal substitution formula for any additional calories needed for additional exercise beyond the 2500 calorie needs.

All this can be achieved on a Vegan diet using simple ingredients. Obviously this is a rough guideline to prove appoint more specifics can be filled in as requested

I'm not totally convinced that you can simulate all that we get in balance from a balance of foods from all food groups.

I've had experience before with supplements - lots in fact - but I've had lots of problems with them - overdosing being one problem - and anxiety at not knowing just how much I need of what - as there are so many options out there - supplements is big business - and because I know I was lacking on my diet, I spent lots of money on lots of pills - food is much cheaper.

In other words, I don't like supplements.

Also, the anxiety that I had to the point of paranoia, of which I was total unaware, until months of being on a diet that included fish, meat and eggs, was chronic on a vegan diet with supplements.  I saw a psychiatrist for 6 years, and it did nothing for my mental health problems.  I ate meat for a few months and they all went away!

your entire defence is totally unscientific, a vitamins and mins are not "herbal medicine" they are science and have been know for many decades (loafs of bread in the war were fortified with vitamins, they called it the standard loaf). If you don't like vitamins and minerals then where do you find bread margarine dairy and breakfast cereals to mention but a few that are not fortified with the very types of vitamins I am recommending.

I've had experience before with supplements - lots in fact"

Your total admission to ignorance of nutrition is not supportive of this fact.

     Your story is becoming un convincing and perhaps fabricated to an extent for the sake of argument as you have contradicted yourself many times. In certain points you claim knowledge only to throw your hands up in ignorance at other points. It is beginning to sound like a copy of  "lierre Keith's" book titled "The Vegetarian Myth" She tells almost the exact same story and uses the exact same arguments she even mentions being brought up by a Vegan family, Co-incidentally she also was on it for 30 years and is Pro Paleo?

LOL - well your attack isn't exactly a thesis!

I'm sorry I sound inconsistent to you.  I'm being honest with you - I'm not treating this like a police interview, I'm simply discussing with a 'friend'...  I'm very earnest and genuine in what I'm saying :)

What specifically did you think I have been fabricating?  Perhaps I can clarify for you :)

"well your attack isn't exactly a thesis!"

If it were meant to be it would be, But it is my thread So I am not attacking merely defending a position that I proposed for discussion. If you started the thread maybe I could be seen as attacking. Thesis or not ,,,,You are loosing your case

Have you read the book I mentioned?

No I haven't read the book you mentioned.

I don't see where you find me loosing my case ?

What is the case by the way?

And what would constitute winning it?

Thanks :)

The case is that there is no defence for consuming animals and still claiming to be ethical as there are alternatives. You have not refuted them other than to say "I don't like supplements"

You have lost this based on displaying no basis for your choice other than ignorance of Nutrition. Winning the case would be for you to admit you would rather be ignorant and consume animals rather than educate your self and consume a Vegan diet + supplements.

Fair enough.

Having your baby die - and suffering acute mental health problems for years and years - where committing suicide seems like the only way out - and then finding yourself 'better' in fact in a place of peace and possible well being - quite frankly I'm too scared to try being vegan on supplements - I've been through too much already.

I eat eggs from free range chickens that have the best life a chicken might have on a farm.  I eat bio dynamic meats, and wild caught fish - so I aim to make sure that the food I consume is got from the most ethical sources available to me.  I don't eat a lot of meat, eggs or fish - and aim to eat mainly fresh raw vegetables for health also.

I don't think that I have once claimed to be an ethical person.  I'm not into ethical competitions.

You seem to want to beat me with being a looser and ignorant - I suppose based on my circumstances I am these things in your eyes.


I don't like to base my advice on personal experience but on science. however I will give some personal details:

I have bipolar disorder, I am very well aware of mental illness and used to take a fist full of meds daily, I also have Thyroid disfunction and take thyroxin.....Now days I only take a few meds. So if anecdotal evidence is your desire. I have blood work that is exceptional so does my wife. Since going from Veg to VEGAN I no longer need acid inhibitors for my hiatus hernia and associated reflux. I have far less depression periods and probably a little more manic due to energy levels ,but under control. I lost 8 kilos of fat when going Vegan I had been trying to loose for years and have exceptional stamina. The key is Science, take the best of it and Mix it with some ethics. So on the basis of anecdotal evidence there it is......But As I said thats all it is, I would rather talk turkey (but not cooking or eating it

All of these conditions pre date my Vegetarian and Vegan days by many years and have improved over my vegetarian period and massively over my Vegan period.

"I don't think that I have once claimed to be an ethical person.  I'm not into ethical competitions."

 This partly was a discussion on ethics, I think you would admit that. So I think this line is you admitting you have no grounds to justify your consumption of meat. However As you were possibly not previously aware of all the science you were strictly not being unethical. However now you have been schooled you would be unethical to choose the way of the mammalian murderer over a scientifically supplemented and composed Vegan alternative.At  least consider this carefully as it may convince you to reconsider.

"You seem to want to beat me with being a looser and ignorant - I suppose based on my circumstances I am these things in your eyes."

   The fact that you are even on this forum means you are far from a looser and definitely not generally ignorant. You are definately in the top 5% of the people on the planet just by recognising reality when you see it. I would however suggest there are possibly some areas of reality and ethics you may wish to further consider and maybe not limit yourself to your former ignorance, instead opting to embrace a new found passion for ethical consumption and the science of nutrition that will extend your life.. But no I do not think for one minute you are a looser, I  will not debate an issue with vigour unless I am confident I am generally correct, On this issue I have the extra motivation of looking out for fellow creatures (as well as fellow atheist health).

There's nothing in your title about ethics.....  or moral values.....

You simply state that "you don't need to eat meat"

I think I do :)

I had a go at being vegan for about 12 years of my adult life - my brain is only going down hill from now on - due to natural aging - so if I couldn't work it out in the prime of my life - and suffered greatly, as compared to eating a 'balanced' died now and finally finding peace and well being in myself, I'm sticking to what works for me - it took me about 3 years to get from vegan to 'normal' - and it was a tough ride - I ain't going back again....

I find your attitude much like my own, when I was vegan - so I have compassion for your position.  Although from this end, I feel hurt and sad, at your attitude towards me as a consumer of non vegan foods.  I need consideration in context, and would like it if you could think about my actions in context to the broader picture of life.  Vegans make up 0.3% of the population in the UK - let's say that's reflective of the world population - what you are saying is that anyone in the other 99.7% are totally unethical.  And I, who has been vegetarian and vegan for 91% of my life, and now only eats a small amount of the most ethically sourced non vegan foods, is coping the brunt of your wrath on this topic.  Is that really in balance to this situation?  I wonder even, how many of those other 99.7% of fellow humans even give you more than a few seconds of their ear time?  And why?




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