The following is npr's coverage ( BBCS was an even shorter excerpt)

"By Friday, the 2010 deadline for a legally binding treaty had been dropped altogether."

Well, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth...did they get anything accomplished?

"One of the major revelations coming out of the Copenhagen summit is the strength of the developing country coalition," says an analysis by the Eurasia Group, a global political risk research firm. "The clear implication from this development is that these countries consider their interests far more aligned with each other than with industrialized countries, despite concerted efforts by the U.S., E.U., and others to divide them into two main groupings — poorer countries (such as least developed countries in sub-Saharan Africa) and larger, faster growing economies (like China and India)."

Oh good news, the developing countries have united and are working towards progress...Oh wait, that isn't news, poor countries have been and will be the worst affected by any type of climate change and surprise there.

Why shouldn't the obvious be stated? We can't rape the earth forever, oh wait, people are already saying that but egocentric individuals want to continue their comforted lifestyles without worrying about any of the consequences, indeed, even denying the obvious and implied consequences sitting in front of them.
I make mistakes, all the time. I become lazy and complacent, more than I would like to admit. But I want to change for the better of life, I want to know all the consequences of my lifestyle. As a conscious, sentient being, how could I do any less?
The kangaroos and crocodiles can't destroy or save the earth, but humans can.
Do I really have to state such an obvious thing? Given the circumstances in the media and my neighbors, it appears I do.

It's not likely that the earth will be gone tomorrow, or that a major extinction is due anytime soon. What is likely is the fact that we humans have judged those who have preceded us since the dawn of man.

How do you want to be remembered?

P.S Just to preempt any critics, I would like to know how much carbon tax you have had to pay so far over this global fraud. No, I'm not personally attacking anyone, but the only negative claim I have ever heard was an unjustifiable emissions tax on a personal level. To my knowledge, no leader in any country has suggest this, least not our own.

P.P.S. Yes, I realize my post is laced with emotional appeal. I would hope that anyone who is a supporter or detractor of the evidence would have sufficient understanding of the subject matter and that those who didn't (Stop living under that rock!) would simply ask and be promptly directed towards the data itself.

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Replies to This Discussion

It doesn't surprise me at all, the more I look into human psychology the writing was on the war before the summit started.

Even for those eco minded many still don’t get it, as it isn’t just about carbon footprints but current and historical use of resources and how your nation/culture obtained those resources.

How many here would not only cut back their carbon footprints but resource footprints as well?

Not only that the developed world got to where it is largely by using fossil fuels + the atmosphere as a free dump, but also by the exploitation of other peoples and resources, often by force or coercion.

While the Old world developed countries pillaged the New World for resources historically it now uses that stolen wealth to continue to exploit the rest of the world. The Ex Old World Colonial counties the US, Canada, Australia, and the like base their wealth and existence on the theft and occupation of other peoples land.

Even of the greenies, Liberals and Progressives only the minority Radical Left acknowledge these points.

So before many want to point the finger at the denialists and conservatives frankly many eco minded first worlder’s are little better IMO.

Having said that I was one of them and it has taken me this long to understand this. So I cannot point fingers
I'm disappointed by not suprised. I'm not against the developing countries getting ahead, but they seem to want free license to make all the same mistakes we have. What is the point of that? Why not do it right now that they are developing?

It seems to me that in most cases such as this (in which we need to take positive action), people don't do it until they reach crisis mode. We are just not good at preventative measures. We're too lazy. We change only when we have no other choice, like a smoker who stops smoking after he gets lung cancer.
We will have to wait for the first mega disaster before things will happen. But by then it will be close the borders and step in the police state as eco terrorists start to blow up coal power stations.
This is my single hugest disappointment with the atheist community at large: A huge failure to understand biological realities. Too many nitpickers saying "well we can't prove this and that", and unfortunately these non-biologically educated nitpickers are the ones financed by the corporations squeezing every drop out of our planet under that guise that "anything humans do must be good for humans and frankly F the rest".

It saddens me to see people who can reject the illusion of gawd but continue to cling to all the other associated illusions in vogue in our society. I feel some atheists are just here because there's a bit of trend, it's becoming (ever so slowly) cool to be atheist. Which is ridiculous. Atheism should be a complete rational state of mind, not the single rejection one single being... blah. And I certainly abhore the thought of atheism degraded to being "cool" double blah.
It saddens me to see people who can reject the illusion of gawd but continue to cling to all the other associated illusions in vogue in our society.

Well put TNT.

Because we can not effectively experiment with an entire planet, because AGW involves so many interconnected, complex disciplines, we will never be able to prove it to the extent that many demand before they will be motivated to turn off the kitchen lights at night.

Even as we have seen weather disasters, we will never be able to prove 100% conclusively that Katrina or the latest Mid Atlantic Snowstorm is directly AGW related. Just like we can't ever prove 100% conclusively that Billy Bob's lung cancer was directly caused by his 3 pack a day smoking habit.

If the world as a whole would wake up and be smart about it, we would play the odds. If we as nations significantly lessen our carbon footprints, dump finite fossil fuels in favor of renewable, green energy...And it turns out we were totally wrong about AGW. Exactly what have we risked?

What harm does going green do?

How does my getting solar panels destroy Western civilization?

All that said, I'm getting more and more pessimistic about the whole outcome every day. I'm sorry to sound so callous to my fellow humans, but not only do I think it will take a massive global disaster to get the ball truly rolling, but part of me is almost wishing for it to happen. In the extreme long run, Planet Earth will survive. A few species will have gone extinct before their time, but Earth will survive. Polar bears might only exist in zoos, but it is quite possibly the only thing that will shut the deniers up.

Or most of them at least. Some are so blind I don't think they'll ever open their eyes.
**Quick qualifier:

"Almost wishing for it to happen" does not in any way mean I'm stomping my carbon feet to hurry that along. I still go as green as I reasonably can and still maintain the bits of lifestyle I've simply become too spoiled on to give up.
But that's just it I had some in shock hat I didn't recycle, being out of town it's so much more a pain in the ass. But I've commmited to my last overseas holiday flight and then no more, no more than two children if I ever have any at all. Which in itself will do more than buying eco light bulbs and biking to work-which I'm going to start anyway.

So what won't you give up?
I was a staunch nearly extreme environmentalist from 1984 to 2000. We worked hard, we built communities, we attended sessions, we won battles. But what I realized after years in that mental space is that MONEY ALWAYS WINS. For every "battle" won, entire wars are lost. Large corporations have the money and manpower to laugh environmentalists off the charts, but give us enough lip service through 'public consultations' and government committees to keep us hopeful, keep us busy. For every tree saved, 10 more are cut down.

We won on recycled paper temporarily, then corporations backtracked because it was too expensive. We were making headway on organics, back when it was just small farms who poured their hearts into their livelyhood. Today organics have been taken over by multinationals, and the very definition of organics has been stripped to international standards which have no weight whatsoever.

In light of this, in 2000, other than planning to quit the rat race and circle the globe without an engine (cycle, sail, 4-legged) I quit environmental battles.

For each one was but a bandaid, a mere slowing of the speed of environmental degradation, with no sign of improvement on the horizon. SO I QUIT.

Like you I thought why bother, let it crash, my immune system is strong, I'm resourceful, my mom can grow food with her eyes closed, even if an ecological catastrophe came, hell, I'd survive. So I travelled and partied, for 9 years. Now I'm back and I find that my sedentary life has sucked me back into the environmental side, although not as strongly as before. My scientific outlook has not changed.

But I still wonder, we CAN NOT WIN against money, all we do is delay the inevitable. I find myself in an incredibly frustrating mind space. I am not optimistic, and people who continuously say "everything will be alright" completely annoy me with their ignorance.

I do not want to breathe with a mask, use protective-wear against the sun's rays, rely on daily meds for mood control and survival. I miss the safeness of drinking out of a stream in the forest, I miss never getting a sunburn, I miss smogless cityscapes, I miss people KNOWING each other through meeting while using their legs to get between home and the rest of life, I miss meat without 5 extra ingredients in the food aisle, I miss table cream actually made of cream, I miss lower C-section rates, I miss when marijuana could be found nearly everywhere, I miss laying in the grass without care of pesticides, I miss driving without the risk of being crushed to a pulp by SUVs and trucks, I miss trains, I miss gardens, I miss local eateries...

I feel this makes me sound old, but I'm only 43! Somedays I wonder where people have put their memories of better days. Some say technology has made our lives better, to me technology has merely reduced our self reliance, we have all become modern trophy wives, we've all become high maintenance, we now depend on this high maintenance and without it we die.

So yes, somedays I wish for for a ecological catastrophe that would drastically reduce the population and force the remainder of humanity to reassess the value of life.

You know, Canadians are the biggest Facebook users, with around 85% of the population being FBooked, tis what our lives have been reduced to.

Sorry, didn't mean to seem depressed or anything :)
If you were truly depressed, you would not have even made the effort to post-least not a lengthy detailed post.

I am but a mere lad of 25, soon to be 26, so my life experiences are far fewer than most of the people in this group. I am not that pessimistic nor am I extreme optimistic. I am somewhere in the middle being constantly pulled in one direction or the other by articles I read, people I encounter, and events that occur around the globe. I have a neighbor/friend who is an extreme pessimist who thinks the small round table of bankers control everything, every war has been a lie to make money and not about real disputes for the people involved, Americans only have the illusion of freedom and we lose more freedom everyday and so on...

He, like most 'America is a prison' thinkers I have encountered, are nearly completely ignorant of how other countries have been governed in the past and today. If I had a choice of any where to live on this tiny speck, America might not be my first choice but its pretty close. The amount of amenities ( let alone the amount of excess necessities) I have been able to enjoy is staggering-it would definitely send some Africans and Koreans into shock or unconsciousness.

What I am getting at is obvious. Its not only the billion dollar companies that enjoy living a care free life, its most Americans too. In a large part I agree that technology has made humans too dependent and complacent without regards to consequences. But we do have the ability to use this power for good. (Re: "With great power comes great responsibility.")

Its not the television, computer , and Internets fault for people stupid, its their fault for not wanting to know and do more.

I was completely ignorant of world affairs including my own government. Since joining A|N at the end of '08, reading books and blogs daily, listening to NPR instead of the local rap station, I have a much better understanding for how the world works, or at least appears to work as the cynic would say.

If I hear strangers pass along misinformation, I politely interrupt, tell them where the facts are and what they say, and tell them how to avoid being deceived. Some listen, some don't and that's the best I can do for now.
My older neighbor ( who attended the first de-segregated school here in Va beach,VA) Summed up my hours long spiel telling me: " Your like the mailman, you just deliver the mail, the mailman doesn't think to himself if a person wants a piece of junk mail or that letter from Aunt Suzie, he just delivers the messages, and that is what you should do. Don't be so concerned or bothered with their responses, the important thing is that you gave them the message."

I'll start by giving them the mail, afterward if they want to know why I did or what they can do about it, I will go forward.

P>S If anyone takes the time to read this, thanks, I went overboard typing all my thoughts.
Money does indeed win. Ergo, we need to make green popular enough, until enough money people, give enough of a crap, to do something.

E.g.; look how fast the Hummer went out of style, mostly because of it's utter lack of green.

In the end, I sadly do fear it will take a disaster of series of disasters of *cough*Biblical*cough* proportions to wake up the sleeping masses. The global community will finally shape up only after we are in crisis and have done some rather ugly, irreparable damage.

But when that day comes, you and I can say we were on the right side of history back in the day.
Since we do not choose whom we are born to and where, most people do not take the time to understand the origins of the place they inhabit by chance.

That alone compels me to want to live on reserve here in the states and appreciate what little culture is left of a people who knew where they come from and would never hurt they hand that feeds them.

Still, I know I would not be able to survive in most indigenous tribes in my current state. I too am lazy and complacent while enjoy the pillaged goods my ancestors stole, refined and cultivated.

In regards to global habits of power and transportation, I would like to see companies and governments show the most effective appeal, greed. The building of green infrastructures will make companies billions and will then save an average person thousands. In a pure economical state, everyone profits in some way. Most oil companies appear to have started green initiative, but how much of that is just for show and hard are they really working?

All in all, I think most Americans are really not ready for change and will continue to fight it even when its beneficial. We are going to need some savvy 21st century entrepreneurs to truly start the wheels of change.
I know I would not be able to survive in most indigenous tribes in my current state.

Few of us would. Civilization gives us certain kinds of intelligence, but robs us of other kinds.

All in all, I think most Americans are really not ready for change and will continue to fight it even when its beneficial.

I think all people are that way. This is the way my daddy did it, so that's good enough fer me.


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