Frustration at the silence and disinterest of my female friends

I find myself endlessly pissed off at my female friends for taking no interest in the treatment of women in Islamic culture. I'm tired of hearing them use terms like 'cultural sensitivity' when making excuses for their indifference and inaction. 

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So, about domestic violence:

 

1. Does domestic violence in the West somehow make domestic violence in the Islamic world acceptable?

 

2. Are there laws allowing domestic violence in the West and is there a culture supporting domestic violence? (Some would say yes, but I disagree; there is a heavy taboo against hitting a woman, even in self defense.)

 

3. Are there shelters for abused women in the Islamic world, or are abused women told to just stop provoking their husbands?

1. My point is: domestic violence occurs in every country, regarless of religion.

 

2. In Australia, we have a large section of the police force dedicated to helping women who are victims of domestic violence. And domestic violence includes assault, imprisonment, and withholding money from a spouse.

domestic violence in Iran1

domestic violence in Iran2

Wikipedia

Laws allowing domestic violence. I've tried to look for some but can't find any. But I think you are saying Muslim countries allow domestic violence. 

Everything I found on the Internet said, domestic violence occurs in all countries. 

 

3. Yes, there are shelters for women in Islamic countries.

 

From what I read, there is a direct correlation between domestic violence and money. The more money people have the less prevalent domestic violence is. But domestic violence still exists amongst the wealthy, not just the poor.

 

Now, please tell me the answers you have for your questions.

 

 

 

 

Good questions, Prog Rock Girl, but I don't agree with your take on #2. In some circles there may be a heavy taboo against hitting a woman, but look at the whole society. Look at all classes, all regions, all subcultures. Women of low status are far more vulnerable. Men think they have a right to hit prostitutes. Ever heard of rough trade? Just because there's a taboo, doesn't protect women. The taboo only works as long as she's seen as the madonna rather than the eve, as long as the guy isn't drunk or frustrated by job loss. What percent of males are actual psychopaths, is it 5%? Lots of other men are high on the psycopathy spectrum, while not being over the threshold. What about the women in their lives? Powerful men also feel free to ignore laws and taboos, when they know they won't be held accountable.
"Thanks for the condascending tone"
Sorry about that. It's the way I write things. I'll apologize but I have no intention of changing.


"So by your logic I can't have an opinion on women in Islamic cultures unless I've lived in an Islamic country? Would I have had to have lived as a Jew during WW2 to know that genocide is bad? Would I have to go to prison to understand that it's somewhere I don't want to be? Nice logic!"
There are still about 13,500,000 Jews left in the world. So I don't think the term genocide can be used here. Unbelievable mass murder, yes. Attempted Genocide ,yes. But total genocide, no. But thanks to the British there are no Tasmanian_Aborigines left. So if you change the word 'Jew' for 'Tasmanian Aborigine' then I think your statement would be true.
My point of view is that killing is bad, regardless of how or why it is done.



"I didn't say Islamic 'country' or 'society'. How about the women living by Islamic cultural rules in my own country? Let's start there. Between 500 - 2000 BRITISH girls are forced to endure circumcision during the summer holidays every year. Most are flown out to their or their parents' country of origin by relatives with the promise of a holiday, only to be held down and have their clitoris cut off. Many are forced to have it done in my own country (UK) in 2011 and there have been no convictions to my knowledge. The oppression of women in Islam is blatant and despicable. Have a look at a woman wearing a burkha and"
female-genital-mutilation
From what I can tell it is more an African Cultural event rather than Islamic. I also looked for this in the Koran but couldn't find anything about it. Considering you have read the Koran, could you tell me where in the Koran it tells Muslims to cut womens clitorises off. And where it says women must wear burkhas.


"tell me that religion isn't man-made (that is, made by people with penises)."

Personally I don't believe religions exist, my reasoning is that if there are no gods then there are no religions.
But I understand what you mean. I don't know who made the first religion but I think they are all run and controlled primarily by men.


"I've read the Qu'ran and the Hadith and passages giving men divine permission to treat women like property can be found ad nauseum. Same in the Torah and the Bible."

I tried to read the Torah, but stopped at the 'begating' part. It was too much for me.


"I do not deny that many thousands of women in our own countries find themselves in hideous circumstances but the difference between Oz and, say, Afghanistan is that domestic violence is ILLEGAL and men found guilty are rightly punished. Heard of the law passed by Hamid Karzai's govt two years ago allowing a man to RAPE his wife with impunity if she refuses him sex?"

What happens in Afghanistan or any other country is non of my business. I don't think the Russians should have invaded back in 1979 and Jimmy Carter shouldn't have financed and armed the Mujahideen. Look at Afghanistan now, it has been at war for over 30 years all because of outsiders.


"Islam has not undergone a reformation or been brought kicking and screaming into modernity with an enlightenment the same way as other religions have. For example, Spain translates more books into Spanish every year than the entire Muslim world has EVER translated into their own languages. This is a serious problem."

Wikipedia says that once upon a time Islam was the center of enlightenment in the world.Islamic_Golden_Age
Today, we in the west are at the forefront of technology, but look at all the violence against women that exists in our own society. Look at how we treat our own women. Even so called enlighten male atheists treat their own wives like shit. I've seen it. "That's just NOT logical" says the atheist to his wife, making her feel shame and putting her in her 'place'.

I don't blame any religion for anything.
The fault lies with us humans.
How can you blame a religion that is based on the word of god, when god doesn't even exist.

We should blame ourselves for letting things like genital mutilation happen in our own countries.

No genocide against the Jews? Are you kidding me? Wikipedia:

"...a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

 

The 1948 CPPCG was set up as a DIRECT RESULT of Hitler's attempted extermination of the Jews. I'm sorry mate but you are unbelievably stupid to claim that this was not genocide because many survived. Look at the definition. Your claim is one of the most stupid things I've heard for a long time and an insult to the 6 million that did die. Would you say the same of the Tutsi?

 

I'm sitting here wondering why you are even on this website, being so quick as you are to leap to the defence of the religion of "peace"? I never said that passages advocating FGM or the wearing of the burkha could be found in the Qur'an. I was making the point that religion is man-made and the blatant oppression of women in Islam manifests itself in FGM, wearing of the burkha etc. and divine right to that oppression can be found ad nauseum. Have you actually read the Qur'an? Really? It reads as if you've looked at a few websites telling you FGM etc cannot be found there and come to the conclusion that unless it can, it's a "cultural event" and nothing more. Read the Hadith, that's a barrel of laughs.

http://www.meforum.org/1629/is-female-genital-mutilation-an-islamic...

http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/world.php

 

You don't believe religions exist? Oh boy. Are you a solipsist or something? Or someone who just makes up his own definitions?

 

You are full of contradictions. "What happens in Afghanistan or any other country is non of my business." You then go on to give opinions on it.

 

The Islamic golden age is a distant memory. Yes, the Islamic world invented Algebra and many other things but I'm talking about the modern world. Winners of Nobel Prizes in the Islamic world: 9. They make up over 20% of the world's population but are sadly no longer the centre of scientific excellence. As I said before, I deplore ANY violence against women ANYWHERE and do not discount the deplorable violence against women in our own countries but the difference between our countries and many in the Islamic world is that violence against women is ILLEGAL in ours.

 

"I don't blame any religion for anything.
The fault lies with us humans.
How can you blame a religion that is based on the word of god, when god doesn't even exist."

 

Because that religion is man-made and the men who still peddle it should be held to account. I admit that we in the west are pathetic at enforcing the law in the name of tolerance and sensitivity but the last time I checked, female genital mutilation is illegal in our countries. Not properly enforced, I admit, but illegal nonetheless.

 

Check these out:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3564203.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jul/25/female-circumcision-c...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH_TC5ujYIs&feature=more_related

 

 

Actually, the Muslims may be taking credit for Chinese inventions when it comes to mathematical advancements, although passing on these things still was valuable and cultures borrow from each other all the time.

 

During the Golden Age of Islam, there was a "dhimmi tax" on non-Muslims and other ways "dhimmis" were treated as second-class citizens. Probably better than how people were treated in the middle ages in Europe, but I'm sure it's comparable to segregation and Jim Crow laws in America.

I've been looking for statistics on Female genital mutilation but can't find any in regards to Britain.
Here are some of the links I looked at:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ae6_1237341776&c=1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7787654
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19700137/ns/health-health_care/
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t402921/
http://children.foreignpolicyblogs.com/2007/08/20/fgm-in-the-uk/
http://womensstudies.homestead.com/fgm.html

can I ask where you got your figure of 500 to 2000 from.

No genocide against the Jews? Are you kidding me? Wikipedia:
"...a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
 
The 1948 CPPCG was set up as a DIRECT RESULT of Hitler's attempted extermination of the Jews. I'm sorry mate but you are unbelievably stupid to claim that this was not genocide because many survived. Look at the definition. 

 

I thought I'd better look up genocide.

http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/AxisRule1944-1.htm

http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0331840#m_en_gb0331840

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphael_Lemkin

The word was coined in 1944? I always thought it was part of the English vernacular: ‘geno’ meaning ‘race’ and ‘cide’ meaning ‘kill’. I've always used the word Holocaust to describe what happened to the innocent families during the war.

 

So basically the ‘great’ empires of the world, the Roman, Persian, British, Spanish and various Chinese Empires have been committing genocide and believing themselves to be ‘great’ for doing so. And we who live in Australia, New Zealand, North and South America and South Africa are living off and enjoying the benefits of genocide.  And what England did to Scotland, Ireland and Cornwall is also genocide.

 

an insult to the 6 million that did die. Would you say the same of the Tutsi?

I always have a problem with this type of thing. For me there is no difference between killing one person and killing 6 million. It's still murder, regardless of numbers.

'Insult'? What have you ever done for the Jews or the Tutsis. Let me tell you. Nothing. Wield those words about the Holocaust and mass executions in Rwanda all you want. And then after doing so, please sit down and have a nice cup of tea and feel good about yourself.

 
I'm sitting here wondering why you are even on this website, being so quick as you are to leap to the defence of the religion of "peace"? I never said that passages advocating FGM or the wearing of the burkha could be found in the Qur'an. I was making the point that religion is man-made and the blatant oppression of women in Islam manifests itself in FGM, wearing of the burkha etc. and divine right to that oppression can be found ad nauseum. Have you actually read the Qur'an? Really? It reads as if you've looked at a few websites telling you FGM etc cannot be found there and come to the conclusion that unless it can, it's a "cultural event" and nothing more. Read the Hadith, that's a barrel of laughs.

 


I'm not defending religion. My point is one of responsibility for ones own actions. And religion should never be blamed for anything an individual does.

 

I still can not find anything about FGM in the Koran nor can I find anything about Burkhas in the Koran. Please show me where in the Koran these topics exist. I also can not find any mention of the Hadith in the Koran either. Where does the Koran mention the Hadith?

 

I'd rather read and be influenced by Harry Potter or a Charles Dickens novel. But maybe it would be a good laugh. 

 

http://www.meforum.org/1629/is-female-genital-mutilation-an-islamic...

I read the article and seems like it's a Christian problem too.

“ And in Arab states such as Egypt, where perhaps 97 percent of girls suffer genital mutilation, both Christian Copts and Muslims are complicit.”

Experts say its an African practice not necessarily Islamic

“Many experts hold that female genital mutilation is an African practice. “

“UNICEF then cites reports, but no evidence, that the practice also occurs to a limited degree in Jordan, Gaza, Oman, and Iraqi Kurdistan”

 

http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/world.php

Most of the countries were African. Indonesia 100%, I don’t know if this is true.

http://www.ipu.org/wmn-e/fgm-prov-i.htm says there are no stats on the subject in Indonesia.

http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?ReportId=90366 says it growing in popularity in Indonesia?

I wonder if the link is giving true information.

 

I understand what you are saying about oppression and religion.

I am saying that religion has nothing to do with the oppression of females.

I am saying that the males of the human species have always oppressed females; they are doing it now and will continue to do it in the future. And the statistics that are from the Australian government are probably true for most parts of the world. Religion has nothing to do with it. Blaming religion is a gutless cop-out.


 
You don't believe religions exist? Oh boy. Are you a solipsist or something? Or someone who just makes up his own definitions?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsist, No I am not a solipsist. I believe you exist and that you have a brain that thinks. I also believe there are 6 billion other people on the planet and billions of other living entities here on earth.

Religion like god is a lie that people convince themselves to be true.

For me, my position is a stance. People believe they base there reasoning/morals on religion. If religions don’t exist then people are basing there reasoning/morals on what?

I believe peoples thoughts have nothing to do with religion or god.

 
You are full of contradictions. "What happens in Afghanistan or any other country is non of my business." You then go on to give opinions on it.


……., ?????. Let me explain. What happens in Afghan society between the Afghans is none of my business, but when we in the West start dropping bombs on women and children in the name of freedom for those same women and children, then I will say something. I am saying something because my country is killing innocent people in Afghanistan.

 


The Islamic golden age is a distant memory. Yes, the Islamic world invented Algebra and many other things but I'm talking about the modern world. Winners of Nobel Prizes in the Islamic world: 9. They make up over 20% of the world's population but are sadly no longer the centre of scientific excellence. As I said before, I deplore ANY violence against women ANYWHERE and do not discount the deplorable violence against women in our own countries but the difference between our countries and many in the Islamic world is that violence against women is ILLEGAL in ours.


What I am saying is, it doesn’t matter what the law says or the Koran. The fact of the matter is we in the west still commit acts of violence against women at an alarming rate. Percentage wise it’s probable the same in a Muslim country as it is in the west. But I have no stats on Muslim countries. There are lots of numbers and claims but no official statistics.


 
"I don't blame any religion for anything. The fault lays with us humans. How can you blame a religion that is based on the word of god, when god doesn't even exist."
 
Because that religion is man-made and the men who still peddle it should be held to account. I admit that we in the west are pathetic at enforcing the law in the name of tolerance and sensitivity but the last time I checked, female genital mutilation is illegal in our countries. Not properly enforced, I admit, but illegal nonetheless.

 

 

I think I’ve found the point we disagree on.

men who still peddle it should be held to account’

Ultimately, I believe it’s the individual who commits the crime should be held accountable for it, not the idiot who peddles it. We could also talk about weak minded individuals being 'controlled' by stronger individuals. But holding both accountable is probably the safest bet. 

 

I guess we should encourage our children to think about and talk about this type of thing in our schools. It would be interesting to listen to school children's thoughts on the subject.


 
Check these out:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3564203.stm


http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jul/25/female-circumcision-c...

 

Interesting points made:

“Until the 1950s FGM was used in England and the US as a "treatment" for lesbianism, masturbation, hysteria, epilepsy and other "female deviances".

“ A survey in Kenya found a fourfold drop in FGM rates among girls who had secondary education.”


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH_TC5ujYIs&feature=more_related

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply but I've been away.

 

"So basically the ‘great’ empires of the world, the Roman, Persian, British, Spanish and various Chinese Empires have been committing genocide and believing themselves to be ‘great’ for doing so. And we who live in Australia, New Zealand, North and South America and South Africa are living off and enjoying the benefits of genocide.  And what England did to Scotland, Ireland and Cornwall is also genocide."

 

Make up your mind on what your definition of genocide is please. There are still Aborigines in Australia (Tasmania excluded of course), Native Americans in the US, Maori in NZ, native tribes in S America and SA, and also Scots, Irish and Cornish people.

Do you agree with the UN definition or not? "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."


I'm Scottish and spent most of my life in Cornwall so know a fair bit about them.

 

"What have you ever done for the Jews or the Tutsis. Let me tell you. Nothing."

Well, I wasn't alive anywhere near WW2 to help the Jews out and I think the Israeli Jews are stealing land just fine without my help today. As far as the Tutsi go, in 1997 I volunteered and raised money for a charity which sponsored orphaned Tutsi children and have given my own money thank you very much.

 

"I'm not defending religion. My point is one of responsibility for ones own actions. And religion should never be blamed for anything an individual does."

Of course people should be held accountable for their actions but if a person is motivated by the doctrines of their religion which they believe came directly from the creator of the universe and they actually believe say, that they will get 72 virgins in paradise if they kill infidels and die in the process, then the religion as a whole MUST take responsibility as well if it teaches such things. Man-made or not.

The 19 hijackers on 9/11 were all graduates, middle class or better and were motivated ENTIRELY by their faith and what they did is perfectly rational given their beliefs and the TEACHINGS of their religion. Islam has to take responsibility as well.

 

It's no coincidence that there are no Christian Palestinian suicide bombers. There are tens of thousands of Christian Palestinians and they face the same humiliations, the same checkpoints etc as their Muslim neighbours and yet they're not blowing themselves up.

 

I do not believe for one second that you have actually read the Qur'an, otherwise you would not ask such a silly question. The Hadith and Qur'an are of course linked, but separate works. The Hadith is the commentarial tradition that recounts the doings and sayings of the prophet. The Qur'an is the book supposedly containing the word of god as dictated to an illiterate merchant (Mohammed).

"He who dies whilst fighting an olive cause is the most exalted." Passages like this can be found everywhere in the Hadith. The principals of martyrdom and jihad are articulated much more in the Hadith than the Qur'an, making many followers believe that dying in defence of the faith is the best possible thing that can happen to them.

We agree that religion is man-made. As I have said, you will not find specific passages that mention FGM or the wearing of the burkha. They are simply how the teachings in the holy books manifest themselves. Women should be modest at all times and ready to serve their husbands and satisfy his every need. FGM and MGM are carried out with the sole purpose of making the sexual act as numb as possible. FGM in it's most extreme form is designed to ensure women are virgins on their wedding night.

 

"I am saying that religion has nothing to do with the oppression of females."

Dear oh dear. Read the bible, Qur'an, Hadith and Torah then come back and try to repeat such an unbelievably ignorant statement.

 

Thanks for the solipsist wikipedia link. Like I didn't know what one is. I'm referring to your ridiculous solipsistic belief that religions don't exist. It is so far removed from reality that it makes our conversation almost pointless.

 

"Religion like god is a lie that people convince themselves to be true." There you go. Lie or not, to those people, it DOES exist and is as real as anything else in their lives. It defines them, governs their actions and millions of those same people have died because of that belief.

 

"Ultimately, I believe it’s the individual who commits the crime should be held accountable for it, not the idiot who peddles it."

Why the hell do you think we have laws against incitement to violence and murder? In 1989, Ayatollah Khomeini offered money in his own name to anyone who would murder Salman Rushdie. No-one succeeded of course but because of his direct incitement, plenty tried.

Hi Lindsay, 

Welcome back. Where did you go?

 

Make up your mind on what your definition of genocide is please.

As I said, I always thought it meant total destruction of a race, I now know I was wrong. I accept 100% the UN definition. If that is what the word means, it's not for me to change it. I always thought it meant total destruction, I think a lot of people think this is what it means also. And they are wrong, just as I was.

 

What have you ever done for the Jews or the Tutsis?

In 1997 I volunteered and raised money for a charity which sponsored orphaned Tutsi children and have given my own money thank you very much.

I am being harsh here, sorry. And what you have done is great. But nothing has changed in Rwanda. People there still live on a few dollars a day. And the money we donate to all these countries, is nothing. It makes us feel good, but if it was truly meaningful there would be a result coming from our donations. But there has always been a perpetual need for helping orphans in Africa. I don't think this need is because of the genocide, I think has more to do wth men not taking responsibility for their own actions.

 

the responsibility of religion, (especially in regards to violence)

This is the main issue where we have a difference of opinion. And I think it is also linked to the genocide in Rwanda. And both come down to propaganda.

 

Even if religion didn't exist, we would still go around killing each other on mass, as we have always done and are still doing now and will continue to do in the future. Just look at Iraq. The war in Iraq had nothing to do with religion. Yet, millions of people died in that war. Why? Because we are able to convince ourselves dropping bombs on women and children is ok. That's it. When the US bombed Serbia. It had nothing to do with religion. It came down to our ability to convince ourselves to drop bombs on women and children. Why did 7/11 happen. It came down to the terrorists convincing themselves its ok kill innocent people. Today in Afghanistan, we are killing women and children everyday. Why? Because we convince ourselves it's ok to do so. It has nothing to do with religion. The problem is us.

 

For some reason men have the ability to assault women for no particular reason. In our minds we think, 'you idiot' about our wives/girl-friends, when they do absolutely nothing wrong what so ever. I see it all the time. The problem is inside the man's head.

 

"Ultimately, I believe it’s the individual who commits the crime should be held accountable for it, not the idiot who peddles it."

Why the hell do you think we have laws against incitement to violence and murder?

I did say ultimately. The reason why I say ultimately is because we all have our own minds. We are not robots to be commanded like idiots. But for some reason, we have the ability to act like robots and kill on command. I say ultimately, because, we are all responsible for our own actions. If I am ordered to kill, and I kill, who is responsible? me or the person who gave me the order?

 

So to reiterate. The treatment of women and children in society has nothing to do with religion. Women are always being treated unfairly, regardless of the nationality or the religion of the perpetrating man.

Seriously, religion has nothing to do with the oppression of women? Chauvinism abounds in both the Bible and Quran. (Have you read Surah 4:34?)

 

The Quran doesn't say anything about burqas. It says women should be modest, covered from head to toe, etc. That doesn't change that these clothes have become part of the Islamic identity.

 

FGM originated in Africa, yes. And there are people who call it culturally imperialist, blah blah blah to be against FGM, but have not given any reason why this cultural practice should continue other than "it's our glorious tradition". The ONLY explanation I have ever found for FGM that is not antisexual in nature is that it is to "liberate the female body from its male parts", but that's also pointless and superstitious in nature, and kind of chauvinist against males. 

 

FGM is now mostly practiced by Muslims in Africa, and the imams support it with silence. After all, taking away things that give women sexual pleasure goes along with women's modesty, chastity, sexual shame.

They just don't care, there's no sense of solidarity... The excuses make it easier not to care, and it can all seem 'so far away' until you wake up and there's sharia law in Canada.

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