I believe that these methods of slaughter are barbaric, cause needless suffering to animals, are sticking two fingers up to hard-won animal welfare laws and have no place in civilized society.

Also, (in the UK at least) much of halal meat is not labelled as such and on sale in major supermarkets. Subway, KFC, Nandos and many other fast food chains and restaurants are selling halal meat in selected outlets.


Quite simply, cultural suicide and an affront to animal welfare.

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Yeah, they SHOULD be banned ... but the second you try to do so, you'll get muslims and jews screaming bloody murder about how their religious rights are being trampled on and about this is how their god wants their meat slaughtered because their holy book sez so, et cetera, et cetera.

So long as their religions exist, this argument is going to go on.  Not being contrary here; just being real.

I agree that that is immediately the reaction you get but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. In the meantime we should, at the very least, inform non jews and muslims exactly what halal and kosher meat is, how it is being sold to them without their knowledge and encourage them to vote with their feet. Supermarkets and restaurants should make it clear if they sell it.

A French friend told me that halal meat is sold in most french stores, and it is not labeled.  That way the muslims are assured that the animals they eat have been properly tortured, but the other carnists have no idea how the animals were treated.

How do you slaughter meat?  Isn't meat the muscle of someone who has already been murdered?  If we talk about animals as though they are just meat, how can we work up any empathy for them?

i agree with you, Loren, that when muslims and jews both start yelling about the same thing, we haven't a "prayer".  ha, ha.  With the help of the sadly corruptible ACLU, they stopped a citizen's campaign in progressive San francisco,to outlaw the sexual mutilation of baby boys - circumcision.

I agree, but that is not what I'm discussing.

No, it is NOT what I'm discussing. The reform of the entire meat industry is a whole other topic.

In the UK, halal and kosher slaughtering methods are, as far as I'm aware, exempt from the regulations governing slaughtering which others have to adhere to.

Of course it's a religious issue! This is the Atheist Nexus forum after all isn't it?!! Demanding exemption from animal welfare laws on superstitious, or any grounds is ludicrous and a backward step. And when this meat is being consumed by us, often without our knowledge, it is most definitely a religious issue.

Nerd, as you know, I regularly piss off the carnist atheists!  

Maybe not banned, clearly labeled as you guys have mentioned already I do agree with, if Americans are educated about what exactly is going on they may have a severe drop in sales, and stop offering all together. It's the companie's decision to sell ultimatly, if no one buys but a few of the Jews and muslims, they wont sell.

Why not ban it? At the very LEAST we should be informing others and persuading companies not to sell it.

Heres the thing... YouTube videos aside if you really read up on the subject both Halal and Kosher slaughtering methods are in part, at least, designed to minimize the suffering of the animal. Even as an atheist I personally opt to buy kosher and halal meats because the animals are often treated much better in life because of the rules regarding the health and welfare of the animal at the time of slaughter.

I'm very well read up the subject thanks and do not get my info from YouTube. The slaughtering methods have nothing whatever to do with minimising suffering, despite what Muslim and Jewish organisations say. The methods are entirely due to religious superstition.

Every single animal welfare organisation that has commented on the subject condemns it as causing unnecessary suffering. To give just two examples of expert opinion of animal welfare (in the UK at least):

The Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC) recommended that killing animals without stunning them first caused severe suffering. FAWC chairperson, Dr Judy MacArthur Clark: "This is a major incision into the animal and to say that it doesn't suffer is quite ridiculous." Compassion in World Farming backed the call, saying: "We believe that the law must be changed to require all animals to be stunned before slaughter."

My apologies for being frank but I'm appalled that an atheist would actively SUPPORT these barbaric practices carried out for no other reason than religious superstition and actually believe they are more humane than pre-stunning which has been in place for decades, for good reason.

Please allow me to adress each of these points...

* You site "every single animal welfare organization", well there are dozens of studies that do not support this opinion, they are however not performed by animal welfare organizations. And you missed my point entirely, which is that I could care less about the religious aspects, I simply appreciate the fact the the animals usually are treated better in life than those sent through the mass slaughter system.

* The beauty of being an atheist is that I don't have to follow other people's made up rules when it comes to my own sense of morality. Your comment appalls me, as it sounds exactly like the kind of crap religious people say all the time " how can you call yourself a Christian if you do X, Y or Z?" I am free to support or not anything I wish for whatever reasons I wish.


I could go on and on but I see no reason. I don't think you really wanted an open discussion and exchange of ideas, I think you just wanted people to agree with you. Some of us did not agree and this has caused you to become indignant.




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