How do you answer the argument that god exists from the supposed perfection of the universe?

I was just talking to my otherwise very smart, even brilliant friend (you've all heard this story before) and the first argument he gives me for why he believes in god (and is a Christian no less) is that he just couldn't believe that something so perfect as all this could exist without a god to create it. I took up the argument on other points, but I was wondering how y'all like to counter this bit of nonsense.

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Victor Stenger draws on a broad array of evidence of unintelligent non-design, from cosmology to biology to sociology and ethics, in his book

God: the failed hypothesis : how science shows that God does not exist

After carefully considering a "standard model" (much weaker than the untenable "three O's") of a god who supposedly created the universe, has a special interest in us human beings, and doesn't hide himself from those who honestly seek him, he concludes that "beyond a reasonable doubt the universe and life appear exactly as we might expect if there were no God."

"Man created God to control and subdue other men, to keep women without education and consistently subject to rule. It's done in an attempt to convince them that there is no morality without spirituality. It's also an attempt at keeping men and women from becoming stronger when things get tough and dependent on organized religion."

I think today it is more about money than anything else.  Just think how much profit there is in religion and how many jobs will be lost when it goes the way of the dinosaurs.  (Hopefully, soon.) 

I agree with you Lillie - god was needed to keep women "in their place".

I wish it would go away sometime soon too.

So if god exists then he first existed in a non space, after all if he created the universe what was he living in prior to that and for how long was he bumping around in non-space? Further, what was the motive for the creation ? Did he need some pals? Was he bored? Was it an accident? And, how did the aledged quintessential entity of perfection produce so many fuck ups in design?

Strangest of his decisions was why did he choose an illiterate, nomadic bunch of bronze age goat herders to reveal himself to, and then, favor them with the workings and rules of his creation. And then after all this trust, confidence and love he has shown to the goat herders he drops a shit load of ridiculous obligations and restrictions on their heads – what they could wear, what they could eat, who they could fuck and how to wipe their ass.

Any that didn't grovel to his awesomeness he brought fire and brimstone, blood and gore down on their deviant ways and salted the earth around their dead bodies. If you didn't follow the rules he would burn you in hell for all eternity after you died.

This is the story they think I should give credence to? Not bloody fucking likely.

Yeah Jim too bad they don't see it that way.

the universe is so obviously imperfect that why would anyone say otherwise?

But, but...the Booble says that He did it all in six days and rested on the 7th.  No way could he have created the universe in all its perfection, why is it still expanding?

It's spurious data, and besides, it disagrees with the bible.  Ignore it.  I know what I believe; don't confuse me with facts.

I'd have to aske what is perfection and why does one assume hat the universe is perfect.  Perhaps it is perfect for the formation of black holes but as far as perfect for life as we know it, the known universe is far from perfect.

I think your point is the key issue.  What does "perfect" have to do with the universe?  The universe just "is".  Since humans evolved on the earth as the earth's climate and geography existed - and evolved - of course it is perfectly suited to us - we were evolved within this ecosystem.  Which is also precautionary, since we are in the midst of destroying it....

Good points SB!

I agree Pamela. The point I think my friend was really trying to make was a conflation of the universe being extremely complex, which is a separate argument but one which is much easier to answer, and that the universe turned out pretty good for him, because if he meant that it turned out pretty good for everyone, well, that would be pretty absurd, wouldn't it? Thanks for the response.


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