I wanted to put this question out there to see how strongly everyone feels on this subject. Being that most of us trust in scientific fact and reasoning, I was wondering if everyone is absolutely, undeniably, 100% sure that a god doesn't exist.  I personally take into account that there is no proof of any cosmic creator so therefore I am about 99.9999% sure that there is no god. However we all agree that science is an ever evolving field and I don't think that there will ever be any proof to support the existence of a supreme being, but I can't be 100% sure until there is concrete proof against one. I would like to know what all of your thoughts on this.  

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In any case, what I was talking about was the meaning of "existence" in the question "does God exist?" 

What do we mean by God "existing"?

I am not talking about the obvious physical existence of the "God-concept" in someone's brain.  That is an atheistic concept of "God". 

But rather, what is meant by God "existing" when religious people claim that God exists? 

The God that exists according to religious people, has to interact with the world in some way.  Either by creating the world, or by interacting with religious people.

The religious person's "God" is claimed to be perceived by them, although perhaps only indirectly. 

So it's claimed that human beings possess a "spiritual sense" that enables them to perceive a spiritual reality - similarly to how our regular senses perceive physical reality. 

This is what is meant by the claim that God "exists". 

Religious people may not feel they're directly perceiving God - but rather, just perceiving the effects that God has on the world. 

See my post above.. Religious people see that as immateriality, this to which is a self-refuting concept. Hence their idea of GOD would be impossible and thus a logical fallacy.. Regardless, you can ask them to describe this "spiritual reality" without physical descriptors such as color, dimensional values, or how they interact ect.. You will quickly learn that they are constructs, like a one eye green monster, from the physical reality in abstract. Can they describe or express anything without physically doing so, or in a realm made of nothing as they would suggest.  It is quite clear to me that such concepts are entirely of their own imagination or concepts they have chosen to believe based on a number of factors including being raised and taught to.. Most of which is purely blind faith. It's really a self delusion to which they attribute things to as it is often the case. One example is a doctor saving someone's life while the believer in question thanks his or her god, or crediting his or her god vs the actual person who saved their lives. 

Or a more recent example is the woman who ran over a motorcyclist because she believed god told her to let him take the wheel, and then the motorcyclist crediting the very same god for saving his life.. You can only shake your head at this knowing they are both quite delusional.. O.o 

WHOA!!!!!!!!      You sound  like  a cult follower  to me Luara.......That is so  out there.......I don't  think  any Atheist  here  could  relate to what you are saying.....It  is  all an illusion  Luara  .....You sound  like someone  on an  LSD  trip...whose brain  is  baked........

There is no need for personal attacks.. We can respect each other and address the merits of an argument without doing so. :/  I see no need to attack her personally, or make it personal. This doesn't add any value or encourage meaningful discourse. :/

Hey  I was just   expressing  myself....Chill Out  man....

I can explain what you mean. But first, of course there is no god.

Words are just groups of sound waves or arrangements of phonemes which are symbols or labels for certain concepts or ideas of classes of things. (And different cultures or languages pick and choose which ideas or things will get labels and which things will be unimportant and have to be described with whole sentences or paragraphs.)

In an argument it helps to define the major concepts at the beginning. So let us take a typical definition of god: an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-present, all good, anthropomorphic entity. Now suppose you pick a different idea but call it by the label god. For example we could decide that everything we now call "chairs" will now be called "gods". The concept or idea does not change, just the label changes. So suppose that you use "god" as a label for the chemical reactions and electric signals in people's brains which corresponds to people's ideas of god or people's insistence that there is a god(s). Thus the original definition god (an omni-potent, omni-present, omniscient, omni-benevolent anthropomorphic entity which makes decisions and probably is supposed to not be part of any person's brain or body) still does not exist, but claiming that god exists, now using "god" as a label for ideas of god, does something.

I am not quite sure what this kind of argument does. Does it make the person who makes this argument seem like a closeted theist? Does it make you feel less guilty or less antagonistic than if you just say you are an atheist? This is like claiming that the character Tom Sawyer exists because you are now using "Tom Sawyer" as a label for the atoms in your brain that correspond to the idea of the character Tom Sawyer.

If a GOD is all present, then I may ask where do I exist? I would then also be GOD, and Existence itself as GOD if God is argued as "Omnipresent".. Hence again nullifying the concept into being meaningless. Next, if GOD is all knowing, then god would know me to the point of actually and literally being me and everything else. Thus again back to square one.. 

Worse still, and like the existential paradox, you have the opinion paradox in which also makes it all or nothing as you take the concept to its furthest extremes. Essentially the concept is nothing more than a concept of opinion and title of opinion to where either their are no gods at all, or that everything and everyone could be labeled and considered a god or GODs.. It's still moot, and essentially meaningless. 

Besides, what else other than Existence itself can be "all knowing", "Omnipresent", and "all powerful"...?  Is existence not the totality of all that exists as defined? So at that point, why bother with the concept?

It gets even more ridiculous for existence to worship another part of itself as GOD, and then punish another part of itself for not. It's incoherent, nonsensical, pointless, and would be the most impressive case of self delusion and Narcissism.. Again I say the concept collapses logically and entirely. 

People make up fictional characters; mental models of non-existent people. Matter in our brains is rearranged to encode information about our models. This matter exists. Remove the part of the brain in which the encoded matter is found & that model is gone. Its physical manifestation has been destroyed. If this physical manifestation did not exist we could not destroy it.

Religion occurs when people misinterpret their mental model as something existing outside themselves. Nonetheless the mental model has a matter component which must exist for the model to exist. In this sense, & this sense only, can any god or goddess be said to exist in the physical world.

Therefore: If someone believes in a god there is a 100% chance that the brain matter encoding this model exists.

Good point,I would like to add that the problem with idea even if it encoded in mind it have to be consistent with deeds, if someone agree with god as idea then he have to act as god is real or else he will suffer the inconsistency.

 “To understand why consistency is so powerful a motive, it is important to recognize that in most circumstances consistency is valued and adaptive. Inconsistency is commonly thought to be an undesirable personality trait. The person whose beliefs, words, and deeds don’t match may be seen as indecisive, confused, two-faced, or even mentally ill. On the other side, a high degree of consistency is normally associated with personal and intellectual strength. It is at the heart of logic, rationality, stability, and honesty.”

Emerson quote from “Self-Reliance”  “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds adored by little statesmen, and philosophers, and divines.”

Trying to think & act consistently using a mental model inconsistent with realty. That's a big of a challenge. I'm not up to it. I'll stick with reality. 

Many consider god is real,  because there is social proof support it, not because it’s actually real.

When people are uncertain, they are more likely to use others’ actions to decide how they themselves should act.

Social evidence can be used on us—not by others, but by ourselves—to assure us that what we prefer to be real will seem to be real.

And some may say “there is no way that all these people are wrong”

But for centuries almost all the people in the world think earth is flat and stars are only decorations.

Social support for a reality paradigm. Hadn't thought about it this way.

It makes good sense. One could say that Christians & Muslims are feeling threatened because their consensus realities are being eroded through exposure to different ideas, beliefs & philosophies.

That's why some of them get so upset when I politely don't affirm their beliefs.

Thnx Rick.


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