Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Strgaze5 on March 9, 2010 at 7:15pm

I was a theist as well, a devoted Roman Catholic. Maybe atheists are uncomfortable with the word faith, and that is understandable. I am not however. That's why I wanted to point out the levels of craziness. Putting your faith in natural selection vs. putting your faith in the Earth being 6000 years old.

I didn't reject faith when I became atheist, I rejected the places I had previously put it in. I have other places I put my faith currently. Atheism is one of those places. I feel as though my faith is better placed now since I have logic and science to back it up. It's different from 'blind' faith. Blind faith is what I rejected.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Spicer on March 9, 2010 at 7:29pm

I'm sorry, but blind faith is redundant; faith is blind. If your atheism is based on faith, no offense, but you're doing it wrong. I mean, I appreciate that you're not mired in medieval manure anymore, but atheism and evolution have nothing to do with faith. If you insist on evidence and reason in order to hold a belief, then faith simply isn't involved. If you hold a belief on faith, then evidence and reason don't matter. It's really not possible to mix the two methods, since each negates the other. If you've abandoned religion, you shouldn't cling to the very thing that makes it so wrong.

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Permalink Reply by Strgaze5 on March 9, 2010 at 7:38pm

You have me entirely wrong. Don't assume a thing about my atheism. I was simply trying to find a word that everyone can understand and relate with. Everyone puts faith in something. Call it faith, call it interest, call it whatever. It's the reasons behind it that make the difference. I put my faith in science, I am an astronomer. So please don't misunderstand me or my intent here.

The context through which I'm using the word you are completely overseeing.

'If you hold a belief on faith, then evidence and reason don't matter.'
I don't believe in natural selection based on faith. Rather, I put faith, my interest, in it because I understand the science and it makes sense. I wonder if that makes more sense. No clinging involved lol. I am quite capable of thinking for myself.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Spicer on March 9, 2010 at 9:23pm

You'll note I couched all my statements as conditionals, so no assumptions. But you're using the word "faith" in a very peculiar way. Theists don't use it that way, and it's bound to confuse. You should avoid the word entirely if you don't mean it as understood by others.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Spicer on March 10, 2010 at 12:18pm

I was thinking about this last night, and I also think "confidence" is a much better word that "faith" to express what you mean, Strgaze5. I understand the desire to change the terms such that everybody appears to agree, but there is, in fact, a fundamental disagreement about how to view the universe between theists and atheists. You can't paper that over by redefining terms. That just further confuses people. You don't, in fact, operate on the basis of faith. You should abandon the term, as you've abandoned its practice.

Permalink Reply by Chres Chant on June 24, 2010 at 2:56am

No, Strgaze, you're right. Atheism is a form of faith.

The ultimate fact is, whether there is or isn't a god simply cannot be known without some sort of proof one way or the other. Either God steps forth and says "here I am, told you so," or we find absolute scientific evidence against the idea of a higher power. Neither of these things has happened, and may never; absence of proof is not a proof of absence, but neither does a perceived pattern prove an underlying motive.

So, if we're really smart, we're all agnostics; anything further than that, saying definitively yes or no, is a leap of faith. :)

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Permalink Reply by Jason Spicer on June 24, 2010 at 3:08am

Sigh. Chres, please don't use this tired theistic argument. Atheism is the absence of faith. It can't be faith. The absence of a thing cannot be an example of that thing. The absence of carrots is not a kind of carrot.

Permalink Reply by Chres Chant on July 12, 2010 at 12:09am

Jason, you turned off replies. Sorry to hear it. I didn't think my response was a "tired theistic argument," instead I saw it as more of a rationalization for a belief system. If you'd like to counter in a more logical manner, I would absolutely love to hear it; otherwise your protestations basically add up to "I don't like what you say, so shaddup, you twat."

Atheism is the denial of a higher power, which because neither pro nor con position can be scientifically proven, is, sweety baby honey darlin', a form of, yes, FAITH.

Permalink Reply by Jason Spicer on July 12, 2010 at 1:58am

Chres, I didn't turn off replies. I don't have the power to do that in somebody else's discussion. I think what you mean is that there is no "Reply to This" link under my comment. That's because Ning, the platform that A|N uses, limits comment threads to (I think) five levels of indentation. After that, all replies to the nearest parent simply land at the same level, with no "Reply to This" link. It's annoying, but it's not my doing, and certainly isn't my way of saying I don't want to hear from you.

I'm not trying to shut you up. I don't like what you're saying, because it is a very weak (in fact, incorrect) argument very often trotted out by theists to tell atheists to shut up. As in, "Atheism is just another kind of faith, so you're no better than us theists, so stop acting so superior." I don't like it, but I'm happy enough to argue against it if you seriously think it has merit. Just be aware that this argument is a favorite of theists, so you are carrying their water to that extent.

This argument is incorrect, because, as I pointed out already, the absence of something cannot, logically, be an example of that something. The absence of carrots is not a kind of carrot.

Furthermore, as I've noted in a number of other comments on this thread, the concept of a god is not a scientific concept, but is rather a literary fiction, which accords it no positive probability of existence whatsoever. The Biblical conception of god is logically impossible owing to its logically conflicting attributes. In neither case is a scientific disproof necessary, because the concept is nonsensical on its face.

I do not, in fact, have faith that there is no god. I know there is no god in the same way I know that there is no Frodo Baggins who fought with Gollum at Mount Doom. That somebody could imagine something in no way enhances its probability of existence. It is an undeserved gift to theists to even take the concept seriously. They haven't worked hard enough developing the concept to earn that kind of respect for it. Wishing does not make something so. It doesn't even make it 0.00000001% likely to be so. Wishing, as has been amply demonstrated, has no effect on reality whatsoever.

Permalink Reply by New Atheist on March 16, 2011 at 11:06pm

Check out "The Atheist's Handbook To Modern Materialsm." I think Philip Stahl makes a very logical case on this point. He differentiates "weak atheism" from "strong atheism." The former is a simple withholding of belief, i.e. a lack of belief in a god. Also in "Atheism the case against god" George Smith clarifies that NOT believing that a god exists is different from believing that a god does not exist. It's a subtle difference but has major philosophical implications.

Permalink Reply by Marc Green on March 13, 2010 at 10:34pm

I agree with you. And I do notice that my perspective appears to be more "argumentative" for the sake of arguing rather than exposing anything profound.

I can say, most recently, I have been exploring a notion which suggests how impossible it might have been for Civil Rights to succeed (to whatever extent it has) ONLY through the vision of Martin Luther King Jr. WITHOUT the extreme position of Malcolm X. It makes me wonder... If atheists always defend under a banner of apologies, can an environment fruit such that theists would be inticed to consider a non-absolute position?

I wonder if there is room for the aggressive atheist amongst all the free thinkers in our camp. Moreover, I'm becoming more and more convinced there is a NEED for atheists to combat the closed-mindedness of theists given their own obvious aggressive techniques.

I have come from a lifetime of making excuses and apologies for theists. I do not make these apologies anymore: no matter with whom. And nowadays I'm becoming more convinced the harm being caused to my children by constant exposure of such mythical lies.

I did not wish to cause a disagreement with you over such petty statements; especially since you have stated how you are tired of arguing with atheists.

I can say, your opinion is by NO MEANS SILLY! :)

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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on March 7, 2010 at 5:59pm

No. If I think in the abstract about some universal intelligence, I am doubtful of that but am less emphatic about that than I am about people's petty religious beliefs.

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