I wanted to put this question out there to see how strongly everyone feels on this subject. Being that most of us trust in scientific fact and reasoning, I was wondering if everyone is absolutely, undeniably, 100% sure that a god doesn't exist.  I personally take into account that there is no proof of any cosmic creator so therefore I am about 99.9999% sure that there is no god. However we all agree that science is an ever evolving field and I don't think that there will ever be any proof to support the existence of a supreme being, but I can't be 100% sure until there is concrete proof against one. I would like to know what all of your thoughts on this.  

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There is a name we have for everything that exists. It is called the universe. There is nothing more than what exists. If the universe is everything, what the hell does it mean to have 2 universes. You have contradictory concepts throughout your worldview.

The only place in the universe knowledge can exist is in a brain or other sufficiently complex representational machine. Two trees in a forest with no observers is not knowledge of two trees. It is just two trees. A person, whether he or she is right next to the tree or somewhere else after seeing tree, can have knowledge of it in their head, but two trees existing is not knowledge of any kind, until integrated by a mind. It is only knowledge when a person recognizes it as validly and truly representing reality. Knowledge independent of a mind is just irrational.

For you to notice your discontinuity of reality you must be outside this reference frame or attempting to peer below the limit of our perception. You cannot properly use your confusion about these conditions to show that the causal law your interpretation and thought depends on is not valid for the parts of this world that we can have valid knowledge about. "See, since I cannot know what is irrational, our process of knowledge acquisition is never certain."

Why must you continue to write about an origin? What do you mean origin? Like a beginning? What beginning?

Change up the words all you like, things only do what is in their nature to do, based on their structure and momentum. This is universally true about things we can have valid knowledge about and when we measure anywhere near the microscopic distance or accuracy limit of our perception is the only place that the world appears to demonstrate discontinuity or randomness, but we do not have and likely cannot have enough information to fully integrate this stuff, therefore, you cannot use the results of your double-slit experiment to negate the very laws that allow you to set up any experiment.

Your sentences do not make sense often; it is hard to follow. You write that statements are atemporal. Right off the bat, I cannot follow since a statement implies and depends of changing thoughts and concepts that are inter-related. All things have change of some sort as a necessary essential characteristic. There is no place knowable that there is no change, even your static qualities, like say, green or greenness, is dependent on time. There can be no greenness or reflection of a particular wavelength of light without temporality. If you are not talking about temporality without time, then use another word. I suspect however, that you are using it as a metaphor and just denying the essentially partially incorrect representation that goes with all metaphor.

We do not speak mumbo-jumbo, so if you wish to make sense, stop making up more and more qualifiers, as you think you are not, and speak plainly. Try to make a sentence that doesn't hold a contradiction in itself.


The question itself, whether or not there is a 'god,' is built on the false premise that there is a supernatural being to begin with. The ontological argument for the existence of 'god' does not even qualify as a hypothesis, because by definition, a hypothesis must be first and foremost testable and falsifiable. That's why all religions are a philosophy, or a strain of biased thought process.


An Atheist may rationalize that the Universe (or a fabric that built Universe(s)) always has been, and always will be (perhaps), so why transpose on top of that observation that there is a magical being built coincidentally like a bipedal hominid that has the exact same properties? Both conjectures lead to an infinite series of non-explanations, so why keep projecting fairy-tales on top of fairy-tales to an already convoluted question? Adding complexity (and silliness) to this or any question does not make the answer any more tenable. Why stop with one 'god'? Why not create one more that created the first one, etc...etc...? It adds nothing.


The question may be framed wrong in the first place. Just because two possibilities are given in the question, doesn't mean that choosing one will produce a proper answer. Chances are, the question is nonsense to begin with. Which came first, the chicken, or the egg? Answer: Neither, it was complex aromatic molecules built in star dust that came first.


Look at the size of our thinking organ compared to the size of the Earth, and then compared to our galaxy. It is utter nonsense to think that our species just happens to be equipped with the computational power to even approach the question in the first place. What I've observed, is that religious philosophies thus far has only projected the human fear of death and a need for primate survival. Any sentient beings in any Universe will always face the same dilemma.

Drake and MCT,

Interesting conversation.

MCT, I never bought the cogito ergo sum thing and I think you are skirting the issue. Sensing something comes first; it is the same problem using yourself to prove yourself.

 I suspect that you are correct that even the quantum world is causal but how can we be certain? You attribute the apparent uncertainty to the absence of clarity at the limits of our perception. But that is just a guess, no?

No, I think it is pretty much a fact that we cannot classically measure both the position and momentum of very small things. It is apparent to me that this is the nature of reality, proven by science and consistent with reason. We can be certain that anything that acts or exists obeys causal law because if it didn't we could not assign essential characteristics to things in nature to form concepts, understand our world and communicate about it. Language itself, wouldn't merely break down, it would never have been.

Sensing something, at first appears to come first, sure. But upon further analytical contemplation, sensing something implies the existence of a thing with identity to sense. There is no alteration of matter and energy between an existent's identity and our perception of it. We perceive directly. The photons from an apple have no choice, but to do what they do. All perception is of something. That's what perception is. You cannot have a thought, without first there being a world to think about. A world in which existence starts from consciousness does not make valid sense. It's all right here, I did not skip over it: The first bit of awareness is not that you are thinking. It is of something. Something in reality. You sense first, then you think. It takes a multitude of sensations before you can have thought, or the manipulation and integration of concepts. As such, the very first statement, if you will, or thought you can make or the base of all cognition, epistemology and therefore philosophy is not 'I think therefore I am', but 'there is something I am aware of'. This entails an existent with identity and a consciousness to be aware of it. Existence comes before consciousness. There is one reality and we perceive it. Our view is subjective, but the world itself is not.

Does the earth go around the sun? Does water flow downhill? Does god exist?  

I can see the sun moving, but not the earth; I know earth moves in relation to sun, sun moves in relation to Milky Way, Milky Way moves in relation to the entire universe.  If new evidence emerges, I am able and willing to perceive differently;  what is the probability new evidence will appear to change my mind? Virtually 0.

I observe water moving down hill; I know gravity pulls liquid to seek lowest ground.  If new evidence emerges, I am able and willing to change my mind; what is the probability that will happen?  Virtually 0.

I can observe the elements of air (actually, the movement of objects or over my skin caused by moving air), fire, water, and soils, I can observe diversity in flora, fauna, stars, constellations, and the laws of gravity, electromagnetism, and to which all my senses respond.  There is no need for god to explain all this.  There are some things that I cannot understand or that others cannot explain; new evidence will need to occur for me to be able to understand.  Some people view these unknown aspects to be explained by god, "the god of the gaps";  I do not need such explanation.  If new evidence emerges that reveals god, I am able and willing to change my thinking.  What is the probability of god being revealed?  Virtually 0.

I am an atheist, that no god exists. 

You are making this way too difficult. . .just try praying. . .if that doesn't convince you there is no god nothing will.  If god exists why do we even question it?  We should have no doubt.  An all knowing, all loving, all powerful god should be able to demonstrate his existence without doubt.  If he can't be bothered, then why should we bother to believe in him? 

If you are certain that A=A, then it must logically follow that the impossible cannot happen. Are you not certain that the impossible cannot happen? And if you are, then do you see that omniscience, omnipotence, miracles, after-life and creation are impossible? And if so, can you see that any attempt to define god comes down to one or all of these things or some non-concrete metaphor or already existing real concept such as reality? And if so, can you not say, with certainty, that god does not exist.
So, then you agree that the impossible cannot happen, right? Then what evidence of a god could there be? Impossibility of evidence is impossibility of existence. I think that if you believe that A is A and only A, then you should also believe that things have to be some things and not others. A thing must have a valid identity to exist and I think we know enough about the concept of god to be 100% confident that it has no concrete possible identity, for if it did it would cease to be a god. The essential aspects of this concept as it is separate from every other concept entails the impossible. A thing acting through causal law would not be a god. It would be part of nature. And if you wish to call god nature, then you're relinquishing that the concept of god is meaningful in any way.

I don't often debate theists.

If you would read what I write you would not say that I am working from a Christian presupposition. Any god, of any quality that is god-like, not just the Trinity, and not just appears so, but is, is incompatible with existence.

Name a god and we'll see if I can show you how that being, in the way they are a god, is necessarily false because it is impossible, because A=A. I'll go with the way they were not a god, but thought to be so, but we are not arguing whether or not people think other beings were gods, the question is could they be and the answer is no.

I'm not 100% sure of anything, other than the logical absolutes (A=A, A != !A)

Reminds me of, 'What have the Romans ever done for us.'



Aaron concludes: "But it seems silly to take it from there and assert a belief in the lack of a thing, whether it's a god or a fairy."

On this reckoning, as soon as I posit the existence of something fictional that I have just thought up (like little red-faced six-legged space warriors landing a flying spaghetti-plate UFO craft from the planet Kolob on some deserted spot on Earth) you will still say that nobody can "assert a belief in the lack" of this possibility---nor even if instead "it's a god or a fairy" [which are only further inventions of the human mind]. 

By contrast, I am saying that when a concept has been invented inside the brain of man or woman, then that is the start and end of it. It is fiction.

So I'll repeat what I wrote elsewhere a few hours ago:

"Someone, somewhere, in the Palaeolithic prehistory of homo sapiens was the first to invent the baloney idea that purporting there was a god could explain a lot of things that were not otherwise understood.

Billions of people have accepted this baloney ever since. This does not make the baloney god any more believable than formerly---in fact no more believable than the many other fictional story inventions like pink unicorns and Bertrand Russell's solar orbiting china teapot between Earth and Mars.

That is why I cannot accept the baloney god idea, even to the level of 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% "

So I agree with Michael Jensen, Joan Denoo and others earlier in this long thread that I hold to the view that 100% is effectively the most satisfactory answer, on current knowledge, to the question of the original post.




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