I wanted to put this question out there to see how strongly everyone feels on this subject. Being that most of us trust in scientific fact and reasoning, I was wondering if everyone is absolutely, undeniably, 100% sure that a god doesn't exist.  I personally take into account that there is no proof of any cosmic creator so therefore I am about 99.9999% sure that there is no god. However we all agree that science is an ever evolving field and I don't think that there will ever be any proof to support the existence of a supreme being, but I can't be 100% sure until there is concrete proof against one. I would like to know what all of your thoughts on this.  

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Do you grow your own food? Pump your own water? Drive your own car? Clean your own house? Take care of your own child? Care for your aging parents? Did you learn everything you know all by yourself? Who wiped your bottom when you were a baby and who will do it when you are old?  Who protected you from harm and comforted you when you were scared; did you do that all by yourself? Are you a partner with your mate or are you a wham-bam-thank-you-mam/sir kind of lover?  Who puts up with your negativity or are you a hermit? I hope you are not responsible for caring for a dog or cat or bird or snake or whatever!

Everything I am and have achieved I have done with the voluntarily given assistance of my nuclear family and myself and some friends. Everything else, I or my parents have paid for. I am leaving out how sometimes strangers open doors for me or that someone returned my wallet once, but I do not owe them for this, but I might return the favor. We have, in addition to what we use, paid for a lot of other people's shit, through a forced graduated tax system. I, my brother and many others who love my parents will give them whatever assistance they need in the, hopefully far away, but definitely coming years of senescence. I am not a negative person, just cognizant of my oppressors. I am a very sensitive friend, doctor and lover, just not invariably soft. And I have had three very gentle, happy, beautiful and playful cats for 14 years. They get their shots, annual check ups, teeth cleanings, biannual grooming, litter cleaned daily, constant fresh water, toys, occasional cat-nip, diets specific to their health issues (one is predisposed to cystitis and urinary crystal formation and another is a fatty), I have never struck any of them in more than a playful manner and they get 'tons' of affection. My explicit morality of rational self-interest includes compassion, empathy and sympathy, just not sacrifice.

You confuse rational self-interest with what you call selfishness and what really is people's lack of interest in your wish for their stuff, stuff you want whether or not it is in their best interest to give it or if they think so or not .

People are driven by their own perceived self-interest, it is moral when it is rational. It is rational and moral to help those that might help you. It is not rational to expect others, that don't even know you, to provide your means of life and security; that's up to you.

What about your cost to the environment, or the people in the countries that were killed for your cheap gas? Have you squared off with that?

I have zero culpability for people killed for whatever reason. I did not kill them, through direct action or through my purchase of gasoline. Again, a few things you write make me want to have respect for you, but blaming me personally for someone killed 'because I bought gas' is really really really 'pushing it'. I am about as responsible for Bill Gates' wealth, but not a particular sweater he buys, as I am for the wage of the person killed for gasoline, but not his murder. I should not owe that guy more than the percentage of his wage that comes from my purchase and Bill Gates does not owe me for the money I gave Microsoft in addition to a computer they sold me.

That is just unsustainable, If every body behaved with that attitude the world would be doomed both socially and environmentally. So I assume you don't accept responsibility for the deaths of the animals 

you eat, based on the fact someone else tortured and killed them?

You're a self made man and you worship your creator.

And you are useless.

And you are useless.



Based on what evidence?

Jason, you ask the same questions I ask.  I can't see how capitalism, socialism, or communism can work in the long run because of basic flaws in their systemic design.  Thinking in terms of competition, or one-up-manship, or win/lose prevents us from thinking in terms of healthy living, living at peace with other humans, caring for others, living as though nature matters, and participating with a sense of compassion.  

I don't like the attitudes of people who think only of themselves or their happiness. How can a family be healthy if one person is picked out or acknowledged to be the one to be happy?  Each one in a family can't be happy!  There are too many conflicting needs that cannot be ignored nor met.  If a family is complicated, we shouldn't expect politics and government to be easy.  

One of the purposes of government, in my opinion, is to protect the weak from the greedy, not protect the greed of the strong. OUCH! I can hear those who don't agree wanting to still my voice. Too bad you disagreers, I expect to be around and noisy for a little more time. 

HI Joan, 

We have moved this part of the debate to

http://www.atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/libertarianism-and-socialism

could you re-post there please.

Capitalism gives us Viagra......a different system might focus on aids or cancer......simplified I know but  it is true that given the choice between an ethical or financial outcome, As a board member you must vote for the best financial outcome .......

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