I wanted to put this question out there to see how strongly everyone feels on this subject. Being that most of us trust in scientific fact and reasoning, I was wondering if everyone is absolutely, undeniably, 100% sure that a god doesn't exist.  I personally take into account that there is no proof of any cosmic creator so therefore I am about 99.9999% sure that there is no god. However we all agree that science is an ever evolving field and I don't think that there will ever be any proof to support the existence of a supreme being, but I can't be 100% sure until there is concrete proof against one. I would like to know what all of your thoughts on this.  

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"I suspect that even the word reality is a construct not actually found in nature."

-My god, Glen. WTF? Reality is all of nature. And you say that the word we use to hold in place and communicate the concept of everything doesn't actually exist within everything? Bonkers. Then wtf are we perceiving, if not reality? A nebulous Platonic inaccurate representation of the real unknowable world? Our brains are pattern recognition machines evolved precisely to have knowledge about this world we have successfully evolved through over the millennia. Our ability to form knowledge through reason is easily apparent. It is laughable that you are typing your thoughts onto the keyboard in front of you, posting them on this electronic social network and almost instantly sharing these thoughts with people from all over the world, and yet you simultaneously claim that our ability to really understand things is doubtful. Incorrigible.

Hi Glen,


I read the play.


Parables and Fables are an easy way to express an opinion. The problem with parables and fables is that they are not meant to be taken literally and they are open to interpretation. 


One thing I often hear people say is that if we took a video camera back to the middle ages, everybody would consider it witchcraft. But I disagree. Some people may consider it to be witchcraft while others would consider it a machine built by man. I also think that when Galileo build his telescopes, people of his time probably said; if this was taken back to Roman times the Romans would have thought it witchcraft. But again, I don't think so. If technology is explained properly, we humans will understand it.


If UFO's are true, I don't believe them to be true though, but if they are true, I wouldn't think they ran by witchcraft. And if the 4th dimension is true, I don't think it is true though, but if it is, I would not think travelling via the 4th dimension to be witch craft, especially if it was explained to me. 


I understand the point Plato is making. But his point is a self-fulling prophecy. If is say I know what is real, and what isn't real, Plato will answer me by saying my reality is a shadow on the wall. For me his story is just a play on words.


Science is not a self-fulling prophecy. It can be proven to be wrong. It is not a story that appeals only to our abstract abilities, science is not a play on words.




I am essentially in agreement with you except where it comes to understanding the universe's inner workings. I dont think we have the capacity to understand. That in no way is meant to detract from epistemology. 

When I refer to no reality I am asserting that there is no whole concrete integrated explanation. Matter seems to regress endlessly. Without fundamental particles it seems to me that there will be no way for us to make sense of things. Neither creation nor permanence makes sense. And our brains are indeed pattern recognition tools which are ill equipped to decipher the endless scientific puzzles of the micro and macro world. Cant prove it, strongly suspect it is so. 

The doctrinaire comment is not about any particular doctrine. It is your tendency to utterly embrace a way of thinking. That can leave you vulnerable when there is any chink in the school of thought. Historically, doctrinaire thinking is a disaster.  You do it with epistemology and libertarianism.

What inner workings are you referring to?

Not having the capacity to understand is not compatible with writing a sentence stating anything, let alone that we cannot understand. You must understand implicitly the axioms of existence, consciousness and identity as well as the explicit understanding of the meanings of the words you are using, understanding the rules of grammar and syntax as well as reason if you are to make any sense, which at least, you do by grammar, if not logic.

By permanence, you mean eternal? Eternal is the only way reality can be. This makes valid sense. A state of nothingness is not compatible with logic, for it would necessarily continue forever. That reality is here, it must be eternal. This is not contradictory.

Knowledge is limited. It must be since it resides inside the skull of a singular entity, which can only perceive in a subjective manner. We can, however, gain limited contextually valid knowledge about this place we call existence. We do not need to know what is going on just outside of Alpha Centauri right now to have contextually valid knowledge that I am typing right now. We also do not need a complete non-contradictory theory of quantum mechanics to know that, for sure, if you let go of a balloon filled with helium, in this atmosphere, its buoyancy will overpower gravity's hold on it and the net force will be directed upwards. And you do not need science to prove that we use our brains to gain knowledge. Though you need to know that to do science, at least implicitly.

And you're damn right I embrace a way of thinking; it is called rationality. I properly and validly reject the use of metaphor, feelings and contradictory ideas as a source of knowledge. It is not helpful to remain open to irrationality. If one can show me where my thinking is erroneous and it is consistent with reason, then I will amend my world-view, but rampant skepticism and postmodern drivel doesn't cut it.

Hi Leveni.

Point taken with respect to parables, fables and metaphors. Although there are instances where those devices convey ideas or nuances that a more direct communication will not. Good poetry conveys more than it says. And digression is the oxygen of intelligence. Like the limited universe, the barren linguistic parlance is not always ideal.

Not certain where you are going with the introduce future technology scenario. Video camera more foreign than instrument of magnification. And considering the propensity for burning witches for any little deviation or hysteria think there is something to the belief.

Dont see the shadows as metaphor for subjective understanding, rather objective reality. Dont understand how it is a play on words. Agree with your statement re science. 

Bottom line the capability of humans to get to the bottom of things is unknowable. It might be interesting to know which side of the issue theoretical physicists are on. Presumably theists of all stripes say that all of reality is uncovered. 

Hi Glen,

Not certain where you are going with the introduce future technology scenario. Video camera more foreign than instrument of magnification. And considering the propensity for burning witches for any little deviation or hysteria think there is something to the belief.

Dont see the shadows as metaphor for subjective understanding, rather objective reality. Dont understand how it is a play on words. Agree with your statement re science. 

My reference to technology was the way I interpreted Plato's fable. The way you see Plato's fable and the way I see his fable may be very different. Or maybe I need to explain why I put technology in my example.



I think that because you can't prove a negative, it isn't necessary to consider whether or not there is "concrete proof against one".  If the positive claim, that a god exists, is not supported, I am justified in rejecting it out of hand, which makes me 100% certain that there is no god, just as I am 100% certain that there is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy.


By inner workings I mean understanding the universe, ultimate cause, how, when, where, unifying principle, etc. So many of the physicist's theories sound more like fiction than science fiction.

One can have capacity to understand simple arithmetic without capacity to understand trigonometry. Likewise some aspects of the universe, not all of it. Epistemology is a wonderful tool for the vast majority of issues. But it is a human conceit to assume that our rules can judge of origins or ultimate cause or ever get a handle on the nature of things. (The pattern is to uncover greater complexity.) When you apply epistemology in a doctrinaire way you fail to appreciate the possibility it has these limitations.

Your statement re the eternal makes sense in a vacuum. But creationless existence does not make sense. And creation or creator begs the question.

Why does creation-less existence not make sense? An ultimate cause is incompatible with reason; reject it. Your quest for omniscience with be fruitless. You do not need to know trigonometry to know arithmetic. I follow no doctrine but rationality.


You lost me. If you are saying fables are ambiguous I am in agreement, already conceded.

Please explain your use of technology because my interpretation is inapposite.

Please explain your use of technology

It doesn't have to be technology it can be anything. 

But before I go on, can I ask you what you think the play is about.



MCT, Creation-less existence is a problem cuz a baby got a momma. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Cant accept eternal, cant accept created. Dont know of any alternatives.

Dont see why omniscience should be required if central principles can be uncovered-theoretical physicists dont either. But I see those scientists as quixotic.



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