At school today, there were a bunch of different stands "educating people" about differing subjects, one was Islam. It said on the banner that it "Liberates" women. Next to it, there was a woman wearing a head piece that showed nothing but her eyes. What are some quotes that you know that show this is true or untrue.
Wow, this thread is getting pretty vicious and I haven't even stepped in yet.
Ha! I just put on my flame-proof suit.
What has happened however, and has happened in a lot of other religions too, is that reforms stopped at a certain point. Since a prophet's words are considered absolute truth, people fear going the next step--in this case granting full equality to women--and the latent voices that resisted the reform seem to come to the forefront. That seems to be what is happening today in fundamentalist Islamic communities.
Actually the Quran commands women to cover their breasts and lengthen their garments. Islam is not based on the Quran. The Quran is abrogated by the Ahadith (mostly plagiarized from the Jewish Bible) to form the exegesis of the Quran as well as Islamic Jurisprudence and Shariah
"You guys need to meet the good muslim people because really I feel sad that you don't know everyone on the block."
I have known good Muslims, just as I have known good Christians. These good people do not absolve their respective religions of all of they harm they have caused, of the misogynistic worldview that they promote, of the bigotry and hate that they foster, of the worldwide divisiveness and war that is a direct result of their very existence, nor the mental illness caused by their primitive and barbaric views of sexuality and death.
Let me ask you this. Was Hitler evil because fascism made him that way or would he have been evil anyway? I suspect he was a sadist anyway and that fascism only allowed him to perpetrate his evil on a grand scale. It didn't make him evil. In the same way, religion doesn't make a person good. They are good in spite of their religion, not because of it.
seeing as she denounces the sexists, violent and stifling of human nature... nature of Islam I'd say all you have left is your own biased assertions. I am not hiding, the woamn stands out as a public figure and as I said you should look her up.
"...i won't stand for it because I fear nothing and I fear no one and others are not my judge and because despite being a freethinker i can judge for myself the value of religious works with a clear mind."
If your only purpose here is to promote Islam, and poorly at that, then you'll find little sympathy I suspect. Perhaps this isn't the place for you. Speaking with you has been no different than conversations I've had with other theists. Whether you worship Allah or not, you clearly still believe in belief in Allah.
It is you who follows that which you accuse me of following, how many times must I tell you I came to stimulate my own mind. You percieve your own weakness not any flaw which you accuse me plainly of. How sad is your current state. Do you realize many atheist find atheism in the same state that muslims find Islam or is only now occurring to you that your own ideas have similar flaws?
"Whether you worship Allah or not, you clearly still believe in belief in Allah."
She is doing just fine! so the claims that Islam doesn't liberate women is false.
Whether or not she's doing fine has nothing to do with whether or not Islam liberates women.
Yes, in some respects anything can be liberating, especially if you compare it to a situation in which there is no liberty to begin with in the first place.
The word Islam means both the community of people that subscribe to the faith as originated by Muhammed, and it is also the name of the set of rules and dogma's that were (apparently) dictated by Muhammed to his followers.
The Islamic dogmas regarding the role of women in society and family, subjugate a woman to her "husband" or other male relative. In this respect it is no different from Catholicism, Hinduism, Judaism and most religions that I can think of. This does not mean that all women in these religions are being enslaved, nor does it mean that they are all subjugated to a male.
When I criticism Islam, I do not criticize the people that are a part of the community of Islam, I criticize the ideas and dogmas that constitute Islam, not the people.
she basically took it up her ass like a good Muslim wife for maybe 14 years.
So a good Muslim wife takes this kind of abuse without protest? Seems like subjugation to me, which is the opposite of liberty.
You guys need to meet the good Muslim people
Don't be silly, Muslims are all over the world, and in general they are good people just like any other (religious) denomination. The criticism that people on this forum seem to have towards Islam is not directed at the people personally, but at the ideas (dogmas) that constitute Islam.
Thank you sir for a wonderful and thought out response. I go no further in my assertion that Islam liberates women than what you basiclaly pointed out as to what degree something can liberate.
You hit the nail on the head. It is the opposite of liberty but that was her husband not Islam. No man is supposed to treat their wife like my dad treated her. My mom basically stayed muslim through it all and came out on top now you say thats not related to how islam liberates women I have to disagree on the one point because of what is actually going on in Aserbaijan with mother's against the war. Basically woemn in Islam and christianity are saints and you cannot argue with them so they set up this mother's against the war to stop fighting there. Does not liberate women? Yes and no.
You hit the nail on the head. It is the opposite of liberty but that was her husband not Islam.
thats not related to how islam liberates women I have to disagree on the one point because of what is actually going on in Azerbaijan
You are still conflating the actions of people and the convictions/beliefs of people with the dogmas and doctrines that form Islam. The actions of the individual are not by definition a representation of the dogmas and doctrines involved.
For example, white supremacy is discriminatory and racist, that would not change if a white nazi helped a black woman across the street. Neither does your example about certain individual's actions have any meaning in relation to the dogmas and doctrines that form Islam.
Islam in the sense of the dogmas and doctrines that form it is not liberating towards women because it subjugates women to men. Subjugation is the opposite of liberty which means that Islam does not liberate women.
Jumping into the bonfire late but, here it goes...
2. Does Allah opress or Liberate Women?
Neither, in the sense that Allah does not exist.
Relative to some other cultures, and relative to the eye of the beholder, yes. Islam can appear quite liberating to women. Like you pointed out early on, allowing women to own property for instance. Some would even argue that the burqa liberates women as they no longer fear being oogled by men. There are also many different flavors of Islam, some quite liberal, some very fundamentalist. It is the later that makes headlines and as such, is what most Westerners think of when they think "Islam."
The relative definition of "Liberated" among most Atheists and freethinkers is that women are truly equal to men in all aspects of society.
- Are Muslim women allowed to serve as clergy?
- Where multiple wives are permissible, are multiple husbands permissible?
- Are women allowed everywhere in the Mosque and holy places that men are allowed?
- Do women have the same rights to initiate divorce as men? Are divorcees treated the same by society (e.g.; shunned or forgiven for divorcing their spouse)?
- When Muslim women die honorably, is there a paradise full of virgin men waiting for them as a reward?
- Finally, there might be a liberal flavor or three of Islam that say yes to some or all of these. The next question is, is that in line with the teachings of the Qu'ran? If not, why continue to even call it "Islam?"