OK, I am trying to find a good report on this. I have searched the net for months, and you can only find one or the other. You can find information about the so-called "sacrifice" or you can loads of information on the arrest, punishment and versification.
Now here is my take, I and I REALLY doubt anyone can disagree. Just need some more information (documented preferrably). My understanding of a "sacrifice" is "Sacrifice of one's personal interests or well-being for the sake of others or for a cause."(dictionary definition - works for me). According to what I read in the bible (out side of what was "said") and other sites, there was no self sacrifice - he was arrested! Political reasons from what I understand.
So how is it, it is constantly taught, that he died for our sins - when there is nothing that supports this? How can they teach people that ".. he died for your sins" when nothing of the kind happened. Being arrested, tried and crucified is not the same as sacrificing yourself.
He did not just walk up to the romans and say "... crucify me" and then to his followers "... ok guys I am taking one for the team, my faith is so strong that I will die here to purge your sins". Which by the way, did not work - just look around at the crime rate in the past 1000 years LOL.
The closes argument I got was that "... he could have walked away, ran and hide, but the fact he did not - was his sacrifice for us". doesn't sit well with me.
So anyone have a way to tie these together, or something more concrete to separate it.
It wasn't to curb the crime rate,
Firstly you're assuming that Christians need a justification of their beliefs.
Not true. One of my best friends runs a christian radio station (I love the music) she is always preaching to me that jesus died to save us and countless other reasons I should follow him. And I keep trying to tell her, not true, he died because he was a bad boy (sorta). He did not voluntarily lay on the cross. as can be found here: he was picked up for: lying (Matthew 26:61; Mark 14:58-59); blasphemy (Matthew 26:65-66; Mark 14:64), and several other infractions, not to mention the jews wanted him dead (Matthew 26:3-4; Mark 14:1-2; Luke 22:2; John 11:53) because they were jealous (Mark 15:10).
How do you guys respond when someone says "...jesus is good, he died for our sins" when the very bible the read says otherwise - well it says both? Unfortunately for me, my wife is a catholic that suddenly turned hard-core, so I am up against this daily with their friends and family.
and your right - no argument when your dealing with "emotion" vs "facts" (or facsimile there of). I guess I am trying to find where the "tide" changed from being arrested for crimes to "dying for our sins" perspective. where did that come from? I know its in Pet3:18 but why are they focusing on THAT aspect and not the trial? As I said above, you cannot be put on death row and call it a sacrifice.
hmm ok, that post is way off target from the OP.
Actually, the Jews didn't give a flying leap about him.
Now when I grew up, if someone didn't give a rats a$$ about you, they just ignored you - you were not worth the time: Listed below are some reference that not only were they interested in him but hated and wanted him dead.
check this link out:
All that because they didnt care about him?
if? have you read the bible? See above - there is no "IF"
If the gospels say the Jews wanted him dead
If the gospels say the Jews wanted him dead, it was because they were trying to convert the Romans,
Are you suggesting that the jews were trying to convert the Romans? I must have missed that, can you post a reference link.
if the Jews wanted him dead, they could very easily have done it themselves
This is incorrect: The Jews did not kill Christ because the Jews could not kill Christ. They did not have legal authority in matters of capital crimes under Roman law at that time.
the rest of your post is off topic.
However the above you pointed out only proves the "non" sacrifice issue. It was all based on punishment that he died. There was no ritual conducted. Arrested, Tried and crucified.
Where is the sacrifice?
Interesting questions and always fun to think about.
Working under the assumption there was an individual that underwent the conflictingly events described in the gospels, at the very least you could categorize this as "state assisted suicide".
Another imponderable in my opinion, if there was supposed to be a sacrificial atonement (i.e., death and servitude in hell) then Jesus' death in the gospels don't cover it.
State assisted suicide would not apply in this situation for one main reason:
he was commited of a crime, and the punishment for that crime is death.
I have been thinking about this, and it would seem to boil down to the same old dumb issue: there are two stories going on, the fantasy one and the real one.
Yup I agree, that is someting many of my friends tell about me. ".. you act more like a christian that christians do, so I can't believe you are not"
blah! My retort has always been the same - "You do not need to be religious to be good" (not that I acknowledge good/evil, I like the buhdist saying: There is not good or evil, only how you justify your actions)
However, from what I have been researching, he did not "fling" himself into execution. he was nabbed.
The "sacrifice for our sins" is a creation of Paul. The idea that one individual could absorb the sins of humanity has no basis in Jewish theology and would have been seen as extreme hubris ( if you recall Jeebus was a Jew). It does, however, have credence in the Greek mystery cult traditions – the very people Paul was selling his new religion to. As Paul (Saul, Solon) was from a Greek city (Tarsis) he was well school on the Greek traditions and their religious mythology.
Yes but here is food for thought:
Again, he could not "absorb the sins" because he was arrested. All of his torment was asked of the jews that the romans carry out. To make an example of him(they could not because of religious reason). I mean the jews hated him anyways John:7:1, 11:53-54.
NOW - If there were some type of ritual or ceremony that he and his followers conducted, say.... putting him on an altar to sacrifice, uh, ya that would carry some weight as a "self sacrifice" for humanity (however, I still think it would be in vain).
But punishment by execution? Still do not see the sacrifice there. And you are correct Jim, just more examples of bible story telling using other (earlier?) traditions.
Problems with Jesus' Sacrifice for Sins.
Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. but He, [Jesus] having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD. [Hebrews chapter 10]
The author of Hebrews compares Jesus' execution on the cross with the animal sacrifices performed by the Levitical priests in the Temple court.
So let's take a closer look at this comparison.
The animal had to be perfect. Jesus' skin had been marred by whipping.
The genitals of the animal had to be intact and perfect. Jesus was circumcised.
The animal had its throat cut. Jesus did not.
The animal was skinned and the skin was given to the High Priest. Jesus was not skinned.
The animal had its alimentary canal removed and the canal was burned outside the city. Jesus did not.
The animal was cut in quarters. Jesus was not.
The animal was burned on the Altar in the Temple court. Jesus was not.
The animal was sacrificed in the temple court. Jesus was executed outside the city.
The animal was sacrificed with Levitical priests officiating. Jesus was executed with Roman soldiers officiating.
The only thing Jesus had in common with the animal is that they both died.