OK, I am trying to find a good report on this. I have searched the net for months, and you can only find one or the other. You can find information about the so-called "sacrifice" or you can loads of information on the arrest, punishment and versification.


Now here is my take, I and I REALLY doubt anyone can disagree. Just need some more information (documented preferrably). My understanding of a "sacrifice" is "Sacrifice of one's personal interests or well-being for the sake of others or for a cause."(dictionary definition - works for me). According to what I read in the bible (out side of what was "said") and other sites, there was no self sacrifice - he was arrested! Political reasons from what I understand.


So how is it, it is constantly taught, that he died for our sins - when there is nothing that supports this? How can they teach people that ".. he died for your sins" when nothing of the kind happened. Being arrested, tried and crucified is not the same as sacrificing yourself.


He did not just walk up to the romans and say "... crucify me" and then to his followers "... ok guys I am taking one for the team, my faith is so strong that I will die here to purge your sins". Which by the way, did not work  - just look around at the crime rate in the past 1000 years LOL.


The closes argument I got was that "... he could have walked away, ran and hide, but the fact he did not - was his sacrifice for us". doesn't sit well with me.


So anyone have a way to tie these together, or something more concrete to separate it. 


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well that is a nice comparison, but the point is still missed: where is the sacrifice? He was being punished. It doesn't matter if there is a comparison, he was arrested, tried, found guilty and put to death.

He did not offer himself - if so he would have done it long ago (imo), or it might have been written that he was going to perform such sacrifice.

Question still stands: Where is this sacrifice?


Christians believe that Jesus died for their sins.

The popular Christian belief is that all men are sinners.

The wages of sin is death.

So all men are condemned to die for their sins.

But Christians believed that by dying in place of all men,

Jesus redeemed all men from the condemnation of sin.

Jesus ransomed all men from death, who accept the gift of grace from God.

IMO, according to the Scriptures in the OT, it is impossible for a man to die for another man’s sins. It is impossible for a man to redeem or ransom another man from God’s condemnation of death.

Allow me to show you from the Scriptures.

Psalm 49:6-9

6They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;

7None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

8(For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever:)

9That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.

No man can redeem the soul of another. Not with riches nor with anything else.

Deuteronomy 24:16

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Everyman shall be put to death for his own sin. Jesus cannot be put to death for your sin.

Exodus 23:7

Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Do not slay the innocent [Jesus] because God will not justify the wicked. [sinners]

Leviticus 27:29

No one doomed to death under the claim of divine justice, who is to be completely destroyed from among men, shall be ransomed from suffering the death penalty; he shall surely be put to death.

No man condemned to death by God for his sins, can be ransomed or redeemed. He must be put to death.

Scripture cannot be broken. According to the OT, Jesus could not die for your sins.

When Jesus was executed by the Romans unexpectedly, his Apostles needed to find an excuse for Jesus’ death. They said Jesus died for the sins of mankind. With this lie they could continue evangelizing and passing the basket to collect “offerings” at meetings of the ignorant and superstitious. Evangelism was a better way to earn a living rather than fishing or doing other manual labor.



ell this was not "unexpected" it was going on for many years. both the jews and the romans were having issues with it. Piliates knew christ was innocent, yet was in a bad position politically.

You are correct about the lie, but that is precisely what my original post boils down to: How do they justify his trial and execution as a sacrifice?

good post!

not looking for a rational answer. I've heard that story before too.

think of the question this way. thousands of people who commit suicide would say they "died for the one they love"

No police there. No conviction. No trial. It was a self sacrifice. So how can it be a "non" rational issue?

Its right in their little black book - he was arrested, tried and executed - I am only seeking to find why they say it is a self sacrifice for our sins. Which as you can tell - it failed :-D I wonder if that was predicted to, or is he still "using the system"


I like your post ty






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