ok, a little hyperbole for the title, but it's not far off.  here we have a state governor scribbling notes about a piece of legislation that makes him sound like a middle schooler.  i'm disappointed it didn't have them sitting in a tree. the larger point here is that this really should be lead national news.  in red states all over the country, we've had a dramatic uptick in abortion laws enacted.  some that have been signed into state law are quite clearly unconstitutional.  

but there's always been a secular argument for such legislation.  it's a weak one, and it's easy to see the religious element at play here.  but they have plausible deniability.  until now.  unless Gov. Brownback truly was just daydreaming about virgin mom and son (i feel stupider just typing that last phrase) he clearly states his rationale.  

here the veil is lifted.  they are crazy for Jesus, and Jesus clearly hated abortion.  forget that he never says it, in their hearts they know he would have hated women from having family planning options, or the choice to have a healthy child as opposed to a one who will break them, or to prevent unwanted teenage mothers, etc.  

i'm sure i've missed some of the reasons to be outraged, so have at it.  this shit really pisses me off!

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Let Republicans keep this shit up. They're just making themselves unelectable, considering that the majority of voters are women.

i hope you're right, but a lot of women in those states (mostly married and elderly) are sheeple.  they don't care that their rights are being taken away.

That's something to talk with Joan Denoo about, Matthew, as you may already know.  She was TAUGHT, probably from the time she came out the chute, to deny herself in favor of others.  That lesson was burned into her until it was supposedly indelible.  Sorry, didn't work, 'cuz here she is, angry, vocal, and damned well spoken.

Whether others can join her is mostly a function of their willingness to listen and to think for themselves, something which, of course, they have been taught NOT to do ... and yet some do.  Some of them will get the message, however slowly or haltingly, and rescind any further permissions to their oppressors.

Thing is, this ain't no sprint.  I'm not even sure it's a marathon.  More like an Iron Man, except that it goes on and on, with progress slow and sometimes hard to discern ... but the progress is there.

'Cuz Joan is here.

i'd love her to comment on this thread.  let her know if you would. 

as for iron mans, check this out - too funny!

Loren, I feel honored and humbled to be thought of as you expressed: "angry, vocal, and damned well spoken."

Now, my task is to turn that anger into positive energy. Kind of like an exploding star produces the elements; maybe my anger can bring forth the elements of health and wholeness. This challenge we all face is a systemic problem, not an individual failing. 

You are right, Jesus and his big Daddy were not anti-abortion.  Especially big Daddy, he liked killing all ages, including fetuses in utero.  

He still does it all the time.  miscarriages.  what a dick!

haha, good to see ya Mel.  

What is the moral and ethical things to do? 

In China, I visited a long barracks type hospital building with many beds lined up along both walls. Benches with old and young and even children family members sat, providing meals, bedding and gown  changes for men and women patients. The Chinese government arranged for me to visit rural and urban health care facilities so that I could observe health care delivery for women in China. 


I stood at the bedside of a woman in final stages of labor; I saw the crowning event and then the final push occurred. Mother was all hot and sweaty, hair over her face as she struggled to bring forth this new child. The delivery completed, she looked and saw it was a baby girl; she wept, bitter, agonizing tears. She rejected the baby and a relative wrapped this newborn baby girl in a blanket and took her away. I don’t know how the story ends. Did she keep the baby? Or give her away? Or sell her? Or did they kill her?


What do I want for baby girls and birthing mothers? Female is as precious as male; female is part of the ying/yang of life. There can be no reproduction without bringing forth a female. She is necessary for keeping a species alive.


Alive isn’t enough! Surviving doesn’t count. Each child, male or female, born into a culture, is entitled to the basic elements of life and health, and love and care.


Each woman is entitled to make decisions about her own life, without interference from family or community or religion. If she does not want a child, she has the right and responsibility to prevent conception. If conception occurs, she has a right to decide if she carries the baby to term or not. If she decides to abort, she is entitled to safe, sterile, expert medical care in support of her decision. If she decides to keep the baby, there is a community obligation to participate with her in raising her children.


Oh, I know, there are those who would deny her the right to say “No” to having sex; or those who would prevent her from using contraceptives; even those who would deny her an opportunity to raise her child with assistance, if she needs it.


So, what is a prudent woman to do? Refuse to participate in sexual pleasures? Decide to have sex only if she can legally and safely use contraception or have access to safe and legal abortion? Should she give her baby up for adoption? Can she struggle to keep and raise her baby?


What is the ethical and moral thing to do? If our goal is to raise mentally healthy, mature, self-reliant, and productive adult men and women, we have the responsibility as a community to empower each one to flourish and develop into the potential that each has. Stand with boys and girls as they develop native interests into community assets. Encourage them as they build a community of caring and compassionate friends. Recognize that individuals differ in many ways, in personality, abilities, with strengths and weaknesses, and with different gender, race, religion, and sexual orientation.


It is not our job to mold another into a person we want him or her to be. It is our job to empower the other to flourish and become that which he or she is.



Joan, I'm going to write words that seem to deny the equality you value. You might find the words unbelievable.

You wrote above, "Female is as precious as male...."

The Chinese practice you describe above IS NOT SAYING "Female is less precious than male"; it's saying the opposite, "Female is more precious than male."

To see this, replace the word "precious" with "more important to the goal".

Your words become "Female is more important to the goal than male."

You wrote the birth mother "...saw it was a baby girl" and "...rejected the baby...."

Given the Chinese goal on population, what was she saying?

Tom, your comments always cause me to stop and think. This response of yours took some time to come to a conclusion I can stand on.

From the point of view of the new mother, when she saw a female born and revealed grief and rejection of the newborn, she spoke for herself and women in her culture. If a child is to be rejected, it is a female child. If joy comes with a birth of a male, she reveals the values of her family and community. If her life has been one of toil and submission, she certainly has the right to feel hopeless and helpless because of her birthright being born female. 

I don't know exactly what she felt; I know she looked bereaved. Maybe there is more to her story than I understand, however, I certainly do not see her feeling "female is more important to the goal than male".

Yes, China is trying to cut its birthrate and every woman I talked to agreed with that goal. The overpopulation is overwhelmingly a fact. Whether in urban or rural settings, the population outstrips its food supply. There were not enough jobs to support an individual, let alone a family. 

Population control may be a goal, but human sexuality being what it is, we breed like rats and rabbits. Conceptions occur, even if using contraception methods. To give birth to a female child, to make the decision to abandon female children, to know one has no control over outcomes is the best way I know of to instigate depression and anxiety. 

If the goal of society is a flourishing, physically and mentally healthy, and happy adult population, then it must start with family planning. 

I, without reservation, can refute your statement, "Female is more important to the goal than male."

Joan, if you can without reservation refute my statement, "Female is more important to the goal than male" it's because:

1. I intentionally did not complete it, or

2 You have not thought through a manufacturing process.

Making babies is not a typical manufacturing process but it is certainly a production process.

I want to check the next page in this discussion before I add to that.




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