wow culty brainwash much!?
figures the cathlics are posting up there bannerwise...

so lame. such a waste. I thought the economy was hurting!?

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Man if your serious about that comment you need to go see someone mate.


Life is precious and should be protected wherever and whenever its possible.


However if you really feel that soemone is better of never having the chance of living then you and I are going to be a taking a long time to fidn soem common ground



My first comment to Brian was probably a bit harsh.. sorry.


I do have issues with people who dont think life is precious though. Rapists and murderers arent my favourite people either but if you say that their lives are worthless and they deserve to die then where does that leave you? Arent you jsut as bad as the murderer?


Now when we are talkign about a child which hasnt had a chance to make those sort of hideous decisions yet. What if they child was the next Albert Einstein, Mother Theresa or name any other great mind. Even if that child turns out to be the next Hitler or Dahmer it deserves the chance to live.


Yes these are all our opinions.. and this is a forum for us putting our opinions out there to be tested. I will test those I dont agree with and I expect others to do the same to mine.



" and you can't even bring life into the world."


I find that comment rude and judgemental. My opinion doesnt count because I dont have a womb? really?


Just FYI and as I have stated previosly in this thread I have brought 3 children into this world. As a father my role is jsut as important as my wife (althougth I'll grant you she did all the hard work in the beginning). Dont discount my thoughts and opinions on this most important subject. As I have also said before this isnt a feminist issue its a humanist issue.



Even if you go to a sperm bank there is still a male involved.. you cant beat the biology that men are involved somewhere.I thinks its a problem where men are excluded from the bringing of life into this world. If more guys accepted this and more emphasis is placed on it by society then I think we coudl solve a lot of problems.


You say keep the laws of your body, well firstly I have never said I supported outlawing abortion, just that it should be discouraged, secondly keep your laws of the body of a defenceless unborn child.


I ask you where else in life is someone able to arbitrarily kill someone else?


Yes prevention of an unwanted pregnancy is the best solution and education and programs to support young woman, and young men are paramount here.


However if all that fails and a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy than my personal morality says she has no right to kill the fetus.


Give it up for adoption, keep it and raise it, whatever. That kid is better off living than not, no matter what happens to it in life. It may grow up underprivledge and live a life of crime and doomed to repat the process but that is life. It can be harsh and a lot of the times it sucks, but its better than the alternative.


Plenty of people have grown up in such circumstances and have risen above it, plenty have started out with all the benefits in the world and still mucked it up.


That a woman though her own choices, or even in cases of rape, the choices of others has an unwanted pregnancy is not the fault of the child she carries.


Lastly I would like to stress that you are wrong about me not bringing life into this world. To me being a father is the most important role in life I have, second only to being a husband. While its possible for there not to be a male so connected with the process it should not discount the role i have played and will continue to play.




I don't agree. Not living is much better than suffering. Yes there is always the chance that the situation will improve and there will be less suffering. But there would be no suffering if the child isn't born. 

"No one recovers from the disease of being born, a deadly wound if there ever was one."-E.M. Cioran

You have hardly debated me to begin with.


That whole "it isnt a baby yet" argument is full of crap. Prove me wrong that if the pregnancy is viable and would have developed normally the only reason it isnt a "real" human being is by the intervention of the abortion.


Also if you read back my statement again I have never said I would advocate makign abortions illegal. I have always said that in the end it is the womans choice.


I would just hope that society would evolve to the point where abortions are seen as the very very very last option, not the first option. I work in the medical area and see young women whose only form of birth control is an abortion.


The whoel argument that a bunch of cells isnt human is a weak justification that I think in time will be recognised as such. When society reaches that point I think we will see the rate of abortions decrease massively.


You mention incest and rape. Yes that is a horrible horrible situation for the woman to be in. But why  should the child pay for it with their life.. they are innocent of the crime.


Good luck with things and I hope you dotn take any of what I say as a personal attack. i say what I say because they a beliefs I hold strongly and have yet to see a good argument to the contrary.





The other day I came across someone comparing forced childbirth to rape. I had never thought of it that way but they are both physical traumas inflicted on someone against their will. Childbirth can be traumatic and has irreversible effects on the body.


Although I do think the "pro-life except for rape" is inconsistent, and people who think this are the ones who want to punish women for sex. With rape it "doesn't count" because she didn't willingly have sex. Then again some people think the woman must have provoked the rape.

1. Where have I shown disrespect for women? I have never suggested taking an legal rights from women. I have instead put a position forward to protect both males and females.

2. Where have I shown a religious leaning? Just because you dont agree with me doesnt mean my views are religiously based.

3. If anyone has shown any sexism it is you. Your argument is essentially your a male, you cant have an opinion on this subject.


Honestly I dont care whether you agree with me or not.I'd hope that by having a debate the subject can be taking past the simple "i'm an atheist therefore any position taken by the religious must be wrong" but in the end as you keep saying these are our own opinions.


That doesnt mean you can leave it at that though. If you get so upset by someone challenging your ideas it might be time to examine why that is so?


Good luck with things booklover.

First time I ever heard someone on this site call mother theresa a great mind!

Gee a woman devotes her life to looking after the poor and the sick and just because she is a Nun it means nothing right?

Einstein had some less than admirable traits too. He cheated on his wife with his cousin, who he later married. Yet I dont see you attackign his great mind.

You dont have to agree with everything soemone does to recognise their contribution to the world.

Life IS precious, including non-human life, and an overpopulation of humans harms non-human life as well as humans. I put quality of life ahead of quantity.

I found this website some time ago and though I haven't had much chance to fact check it the information seems correct. The article that seems most important is this one. 

The first reference to abortion is on page 5, so don't get discouraged until after that. Though I understand we are all atheists here more information is always nice. 


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