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Seeking feedback on bible context discussion.
I'm currently having a discussion with a friend of a friends about bringing Bibles back into schools so our kids can be more moral. I've pasted the conversation and I'm just wondering what your thoughts where on how I've responded. I tried to make my response simple and quick because I don't find long responses compelling to read.
Yes, after studying religion and the Bible for the better part of the last 10 years, reading apologetics, and watching debates my mind is pretty much made up on the matter, but I'm open to new arguments on the matter.
- Him:Well, if you could provide me book, chapter, verse of each of these, I'd be happy to discuss them with you. Otherwise, I'd be wasting my time to say anything more on the matter, being as it appears your mind is made up.Me:Yes, after studying religion and the Bible for the better part of the last 10 years, reading apologetic and watching debates my mind is pretty much made up on the matter, but I'm open to new arguments on the matter.
- Here's a simple one though, revelation 2:22-23 "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their[a] deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works."
Nice to know Jesus is ok with killing your child if you commit adultery... - Him:Can we begin by placing Revelation 2:22-23 in context? The verses you quote have little if any meaning when viewed by themselves. So, I’ll frame the context for you in Revelation 2:18-ff. First, Revelation chapters 2 and 3 are written to seven churches in Asia, and the verses you quote were specifically addressing the church in Thyatira (v.18). Verse 19 actually praises the church for their “deeds, and [their] love and faith and service and perseverance, and that [their] deeds of late are greater than at first.” You see, the Son of God (v.18) initially informs the church of what they are doing that is in accordance with God’s will. Now, in v.20 the Son of God then goes on to say “but I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.” Here we read that “Jezebel” (and this may or may not have been her name) has usurped Christ’s church. (The name Jezebel can also be found in 2 Kings 9:22, “…’What peace, so long as the harlotries of your mother Jezebel and her witchcrafts are so many?’” Christ may have used the name Jezebel symbolically, referring back to 2 Kings 9:22, but make no mistake certainly there was a woman in the church he is warning the church about.) Verse 20 tells us that she has deceived and seduced Christ servants (Christians), by having them commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols (both sins). Importantly, Jezebel is distinguished from “my servants.” So, we have two different sins. The sin of Jezebel, by usurping the church (btw her sins suggest she was a follower of Balaam, so she was Pagan), and the sins of individuals in the church in that they 1) tolerated Jezebel and her evil, 2) they participated in her evil, and 3) they willfully and knowingly were sinning against God. Now, verse 21 is specific and direct “I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.” Her opportunity to turn from her sin and return to serving God is nearing an end. Christ’s patience with her is ending, or has ended at this point. Now, verse 22 serves two functions. First, this is her punishment that Christ is going to rightfully administer, unless as verse 22 concludes “they repent of her deeds,” which means second, this is probably her final warning. Separately, we also see that the members of the church will be given to “great tribulation.” They (the church) are also going to receive punishment for their tolerance and participation in Jezebel’s sin. Now, verse 23, and the verse you correctly note threatens to kill her children. I would suggest to you that if her children were killed it was because they had wholly accepted her paganism, meaning they are at an age of accountability AND are also participating in pagan worship. I draw this conclusion because the church is only (I use this term loosely) going to be punished, for now. This would suggest the church is in sin, but still may repent, but her children are pagan and do not desire to repent. On a separate note, you are a child despite being an adult, and it is possible (although admittedly we do not know) her children may in fact be older too. Our human nature causes us to read children as being young, or even babies, but this isn’t necessarily true. I doubt this is a woman of an extremely young age, based on her influence that is noted in verse 20 she “calls herself a prophetess.” Both Jezebel and her children would serve as an example to the church to stand against paganism, and stop tolerating and participating in paganism within the church. Understand, these verses are about the church, not Jezebel per se.
- ME:Are you really trying to justify someone killing someone else because their religious beliefs differ and saying it's moral in this context? I could care less how much the Jesus character was loosing his patience with anyone, because it does not put murder in a moral context. As you confirmed he was indeed threatening to kill her children for adultery and/or Jesus's made up morals, and as a parent myself it doesn't matter how old the children or if they are biologically related, they're still our children. I'll disregard, the nonsensical statement of eating things sacrificed to idols, lol. This book is not a moral book and the God it describes is not a moral character. I'd go one step further and say I'm willing to bet you and a majority of people are more moral that what's described in those books.
I've heard the whole out of context argument before and while it may be pertinent in some instances, there's no context where rape, pillaging, slavery, and killing children to name a few are ok or morally correct.
I am an Atheist and my feelings towards the Quran are the same as the Bible and most other religious text. They are historical works of fiction with some reality thrown in sparingly. They have some good things and some bad things, some nice poetry, and some interesting stories. A good example I've found of a comparative is Abraham Lincoln Vampire hunter.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Thete.fi on -
I think that for a proper discussion on you guys' real topic "bringing Bibles back into schools so our kids can be more moral" - about bringing "morality" or better values into the society, you shouldn't stay on the level of scripture analysis.
The Big Value discussion, IMO, is a huge hot potato. The thing about values and ethics is, that you can support and argue well for almost any kind of value system (Ideological Dilemmas, Michael Billig). The question is, which ethical system or set of values to choose and promote if you can argue for any of them?
Since "because of religion" is not a good argument for non-theists, e.g. Sam Harris says we can find good values through science, but I don't agree. One of "semi-science-based" (economics-based) value systems is Ayn Rand's Objectivism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_%28Ayn_Rand%29) which basically states that egoism leads to better societies. Really?
Yea, but even the religious field has acknowledged that we really need to think about this "which morals to choose" question, see Dalai Lama about religion not being "enough" anymore: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/13/dalai-lama-facebook-religi...
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Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on -
One of the most egregious examples of misguided bible "morality" may be found in Judges 19:22-30. If someone wants to tell me how the rape of a woman can be construed as moral in ANY context, never mind the one found in that particular passage, I want to hear it. What's worse is that that same passage virtually duplicates the action taken by Lot in Genesis 19:7-8 - in that case, offering his two virgin daughters to a mob - so that he and his guests are not disturbed!
By any measure, these actions are despicable, and they are not alone in the old testament.
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Permalink Reply by James Kz on -
Two useful sources:
The Skeptic's Annotated Bible (searchable by subject)
and Why Does God Hate Amputees (a discussion of the morality of the Bible using amputees)
There is so much wrong with this fellow's arguments it is difficult where to begin. Besides, it is up to him to show the Bible is a morally-justifiable code to inculcate trapped students who cannot bow out and will come under pressure to stay, to teach.
Forget the moral fight. The person you argue with is already convinced his idea of the Bible is the morally-correct one. Morals do not proceed from the Bible. Ask, without his referring to anything in the Bible or his faith, what reason or evidence he has to suppose the Bible is the correct version of morality and events, and argue from there. He could not accept the Bible is a moral guide unless he already had one independent of the Bible.
Try these arguments instead:
The Argument for the Secular State: The Secular State (one disinterested in religion) is the best protection that religion has from the depredations of the State, and vice versa. Consider: who will interpret the Bible for the students of a public school? A Mormon teacher? A Jewish teacher? A Catholic teacher? A Lutheran teacher? An Assembly of God teacher? A Muslim teacher? A Wiccan teacher?
Would he demand a knowledge of the Bible to use it for instruction (a violation of religious tests of the Constitution), and who would write those tests? The USA is the most religious of the Western democracies because of its secular disinterested State. All other Western monarchies and democracies have state religions, and a much greater populace of atheists. Does he wish that for our democracy too, because anyone who truly thinks about what is in the Bible is already on the path to atheism. Is his faith that strong?
Should the Sate uphold the Bible as a set of instructions of any sort that the school must teach (or even if the local school board does), then the State must rule which version is acceptable (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Coptic, &c) and what teaching is acceptable amongst all possible positions.
If the State were to teach the Bible as morally-correct, will it also include the Vedas? The Qu'ran? A Wiccan Book of Shadows? Once the State rules on a religion, it marginalises all other religions.
And if the State mandates a particular version of Biblical Truth (tm) over all other versions of Biblical Truth (tm), then indeed the State has adopted a State religion, and freedom of religion, speech, and assembly are overturned.
It is noteworthy that Evangelicals are particularly concerned about following the Constitution, except when it involves religious freedoms. Then they want nothing to do with it. They are anti-American.
The Evangelical Elect are in favour of this, because they believe it is their version that will be adopted. Are they that sure of themselves? Do they wish to find out what real persecution is? (Hint: it is not removing Nativity scenes from government land. It more resembles heresy and blasphemy laws, interpreted by the State.)
The Argument from Reality: In no way does the universe, as depicted in the Bible, operate as depicted by observation and evidence. For what good reason should the stories, dreams, beliefs, and prophecy of a Bronze Age culture long dead be considered in any way meaningful to modern discussion?
Do you like your flush toilet? Do you hold the science behind the function of a syphon to be relative to the modern world, or where to build your latrine.
How does the Bible address such moral issues as insider trading? Environmental degredation? The Germ Theory of Disease? Medical Science? (The last particularly bothers me, since I have epilepsy. The Bible [in both testaments] instructs that epilepsy is the result of demon possession. There are those in the USA that honestly believe this, and would either try to "cast out" my demons, or have me stoned, and not with weed.)
The Argument of Marriage: The Fundamentalist Elect (tm) are particularly concerned for "one man, one woman" marriage. But marriage in the Bible, not even the New Testament, is depicted that way. It is one man and one woman, one man and several women, one man and one or several women and his slaves and concubines, one man and one or several women and her slaves and concubines, your dead brother's widow, children, &c.
The Argument from the First Amendment: The Bible is not prohibited in schools. Most schools carry it in their libraries, and all students may bring one to read at their leisure time, like any other book. Prayer is not prohibited in school (think five minutes before an examination). Such arguments as taking God out of schools are really arguments of religious privledge coupled with arguments for freedom to proselytise on government property and at the taxpayer expense - refer back to the State Religion argument.
Ask if your freind is an American first, or a Christian first. Does he hold the Bible or the Constitution as the foundation of American law and society. If he answers the first, he is an enemy of the Constitution.
Think about that. Government officials (even little village councilmen like me), military enlisted and officers, and a whole range of people affirm (or swear) to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. Anyone who would uphold the Bible over the Constitution is an Enemy of the State.
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Permalink Reply by James Kz on
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There is only one Bible verse that matters here: 1 Peter 3:15 - "But sanctify the Lord God in you hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: . . ." (link has notes on the text and leads to The Skeptic's Annotated Bible)
Amongst the Fundamentalist Elect (tm) this is called "the Great Commission." This commission holds that a person whose faith is challenged must be prepared to give the reason for their faith.
It is up to him to convince you of the merit of his claim that the Bible is suitable for moral teaching in schools, not you. He is commanded by his own Bible to understand all within the Bible to give reasoned argument. Thus his argument of "show him where it is" violates the New Testament Great Commission. That is his job according to the Bible. He should already know. An atheist should not know more than he according to the Great Commission.
(But if he takes the Great Commission seriously, and seeks to understand, really understand, what is in the Bible, he is on the way to scepticism, then atheism. Ask if his faith is strong enough to read and understand the entire Bible before he argues its merits to you. Snore . . . Numbers . . . begat begats and pages more begats)
Today's New Testament moral quote: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.--1 Timothy 2:11-12
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Permalink Reply by James Kz on
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Actually it is not. The Bible may be taught as literature, as may any other religious text/
The Bible may also be taught in the context of a comparative religion class. However, the Fundamentalist Elect (tm) do not want their children exposed to such ideas as Wicca, Hinduism, Shintoism, the Papacy, Gnosticism, &c, so you will never see comparative religion in a public school below the university level.
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Permalink Reply by James Kz on
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Hence my long post above with references, referring to the believer's commission in the Bible to justify his faith by reason as given in 1 Peter 3:15.
There is no possible context that slavery, murder, genocide, &c can be justified as moral. None. But the Bible itself says the believer must give account, not the unbeliever.
I thought that was a pretty good bit of prose for an ex-Wiccan never-Christian who has no apologetics training other than self-defence against my American religious bretheren.
If God is omnipresent, as depicted by Christians, no secular power could ever take him out of the schools. He is always there, by their own reckoning.
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Permalink Reply by Agner J Santiago on -
Wow, excellent responses. I appreciate the information you've provided and the time, thank you very much.
Alas he's gone of the rails and posted the below response:
No matter what I say, as we have both already stated, you have made up your mind. This is evident in your response. God gives us free will and you freely choose not to serve Him or acknowledge Him.
I would however like to thank you. You have caused me to have an epiphany. Since you don’t believe in God, as I understand it, you also don’t believe in an afterlife. You live, you die, and your body goes in the ground and then nothing. I have to ask, where is the moral fairness in this? What is moral about living a life in poverty and then dying to nothing? What is moral about being born into an abusive family, living in fear, and then dying to nothing? By the atheist very definition, you must be the least moral people on earth, because you don’t believe in fairness at death. Fairness at death would require an afterlife where your fate is based on what you did while you lived. If everyone dies and receives the same ending, that being nothing, your definition of fairness is flawed. It would be morally wrong for a rich man to die to nothing and a poor man to die to nothing, because they were unequal in life. And men will never be equal in life. Case in point, just two weeks ago, a police officer in NY gives a homeless man shoes, and instead of wearing them he hides them. Oh by the way, taxpayers are supplying him an apartment, but he chooses to live on the street. Neither you nor I can force someone to improve their conditions. We can only bring down those above us through force, taxes, or unlawful laws.
When we serve God, we have the hope of an eternal life in Heaven. But if we don’t serve Him we have the promise of eternity in Hell. These statements are true for everyone regardless of wealth, social status, and circumstances of life. But you don’t believe them, because you think men make morals. The problem is your morals and my morals and the morals of every person that reads this are different. We can’t agree on homosexuality, divorce, remarriage, and in our case the word murder. You read kill and murder as the same thing. I read kill as what the government is authorized to do, and murder as what a man does in a theater. I believe if every person ever found guilty of murder and rape was put to death, we would have a lot less murder and rape in our society. I doubt you agree. I believe in self-defense, where if I am attacked I have the right to defend myself and if necessary kill my attacker. This isn’t murder.
I know I ask a lot of questions, but I have another one. Do you belief in the “big bang?” If so, wouldn’t you agree it takes a tremendous amount of faith to think that by pure chance a bang happened and something was created out of nothing? That by pure chance something evolved out of nothing for a big bang to accidentally occur. I would think it actually requires more faith to believe in the “big bang” than to believe in a supreme being. Thoughts?(Needless to say I'm pretty much done wasting my time with this individual as I don't have the time or patience to correct every single error in his statements. Instead I will try to provide links for him to read if he's really interested in the topic. Feel free to post any suggested links for him. I'm thinking Matt Dillahunty's superiority of secular morality as a good starting point? ( http://blip.tv/the-atheist-experience-tv-show/matt-dillahunty-the-s... )
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Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on
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Oh, gad ... "fairness!" Someone needs to tell this dip that fairness and justice are not naturally occurring concepts. Ask a mother cheetah if she thinks it's fair if her cubs get killed by hyenas while she's out finding food for them, never mind ask a resident of Darfur if it's fair that the Janjaweed raise havoc with them when all they want to do is survive.
Fairness is a concept invented and defined by MAN, to attempt to create equity in a world which doesn't care if we live or die. Justice is no different, and both concepts have been arrived at by cultures which existed before the old testament was ever penned.
The problem is that your opponent doesn't want to hear any of this. He can't conceive of a world without his deity, and so long as that is the case, any discussion will be fruitless.
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Permalink Reply by Dyslexic's DOG on -
Theists always favor the God is the FIRST CAUSE argument (never a theory),
Though if you consider Stephen Hawking's theory, where the universe started as a Black Hole, then in such a Black Hole, time does not exist, thus there is no time for a God to exist before the Black Hole erupted into the expanding universe.
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Permalink Reply by Dyslexic's DOG on
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I would prefer public secular schools such as ours have copies of the Bible, so when I denigrate the scripture for it's utter profound and obvious stupidity, it pays to have it freely available to students to investigate and understand that I am not telling lies. Reinforcing my teaching and thus adding extra shielding against their being indoctrinated into Christianity. Yes, the Bible is a good weapon against Christianity if approached the right way. I think this is why Richard Dawkins supports their introduction. The bible can become the bane of Christianity, due to the absurd stupidity it contains if exposed correctly.
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Permalink Reply by James Kz on
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Tell him he is wrong about you, and judged you unfairly, in accordance with his own holy book's admonishment against judging others. Certainly you're not close-minded, you are open to any evidence he can provide his position is true.
Should he actually provide such evidence, then you would be required by reason to alter, abolish, modify, or amend your own position. But if there were actual evidence for his faith, then it would be science, not faith, and no belief without proof would be needed.
Belief without proof is not a virtue, it is gullibility. I have a bridge in New York to sell to anyone who has faith in me. Low price, good water view.
The anecdotal story of a police officer giving a homeless man shoes is specious.
I am an atheist and have bought new clothes and toys for the homeless, thus that particular moral idea (charity) does not proceed from the Bible.
I was also homeless and no Christian ever bought me anything I am aware of, certainly did not crow about it in the press, in violation of Jesus's own commands about humility.
"God gives us free will" is nonsensical.
A) if he gave it to us, it is not free.
B) if the penalty for unbelief is hellfire and damnation, it is coerced, not free.
C) if pearly-bliss is not simply given to all, it is not free (it has a payment).
D) if one believes for fear of punishment, one is hedging his bet (against ten thousand other gods he is atheistic about) in favour of one, he is not being faithful.
E) Your mind is not closed, his is. He believes without proof one religious interpretation of Christianity over thousands, does not adequately defend his faith (only denigrates you with an ad hominem attack - you are close-minded), and only believes one religion over tens of thousands of religions without any ever proved or any reason his is correct other than his holy book (and the others have holy books too).
You only ask for evidence. 1 Peter 3:15 requires him to provide the reason for his belief, not you for your unbelief. He is not following the demand of the New Testament, and if he is not following the dictates of his own faith, why should you?
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Permalink Reply by James Kz on
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There is also this. Many different studies have indicated that the religious are generally found on the left side of this curve. Some non-religious also are, but the vast majority are found on the right-hand side. As intelligence is supposedly God-given, why do you suppose that is? God rewards the least intelligent? If he is only looking for the intellectually-challenged for his army in Armageddon, Satan will get the best generals.
(On the chart, a member of Mensa is in the yellow, 132, a member of Intertel is in the purple, 148, a member of ISPE or Triple Nine is off the chart, 164). The chart shows the distribution of people and their relative ability to solve complex problems (IQ). God is not a complex problem: he can be demonstrated to exist, or he can't. 1 Peter 3:15 puts the onus of demonstration on your friend, not you. If he cannot follow the Great Commission, he is not a Christian.
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