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Permalink Reply by Karl on May 19, 2009 at 4:34pm

Also there seems to be some confusion as wether there is one being with many names, or a hierachy of demons.Its due to the church trying to create a trinity of evil to reflect the trinity of god/jeebus/holy spirit

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Permalink Reply by Bill Ballard on May 19, 2009 at 5:46pm

Satan is a religious image,the bad guy to god's good guy.Though I regard him as totally fictictious true believers in satan can be dangerous.Some are just crackpots but others,like Charles Manson,are very dangerous.

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Permalink Reply by Karl on May 20, 2009 at 5:01am

Well Satan is a metaphor for freewill, the fact that people can use freewill for good or evil, real satanists recognize this and say that the worship of Satan is meant as a way of useing that freewill for good without the conventional restraints of religion. Manson was just posturing to the popular belief that satanism is the worship of evil.

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Permalink Reply by Mel on May 19, 2009 at 6:14pm

One of my all time favourties stories is the comic-book sequence called "Lucifer" by Vertigo comics. It's about what happens to Lucifer after he hands over the keys to Hell the Morpheus (the anthropomorphic personification of Dreams). His wings get cut off, he runs an exclusive club in LA, he rescues the ArchAngel Gabriel's child and creates a new Universe to get away from God, whom he loathes... for all sorts of deep and at the same time very human reasons. His girlfriend is the leader of Lillith's children and she's AWESOME ;D It's very faithful to the hardcore Catholic mythology that built up around the bible (most of that stuff about the fall isn't in the bible at all, is it?)

I remember hearing that "Satan" as most hardcore folks think of him is a combo of some Greek/Roman mythology - the fauns and satyrs = the hooved feet - and a more western folk-lore for the name and Lightbringer-ness. Typical Christian behaviour there, actually :D

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Permalink Reply by Goz on May 19, 2009 at 8:03pm

I feel of the two,God is far more evil...Look at the number of humans and animals he's killed...And who invented hell?
Not Satin.
Who sends you to hell if you don't worship him.
Not Satin.
I rest my case.

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Permalink Reply by Karl on May 20, 2009 at 5:24am

Yep Lucifer as the bringer of light comes from a lot of Greek mythology a lot older than Christianity and I think that Satan has been around since the dawn of time as The green man/imps etc.But its always been a metaphor for mans free will.

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Permalink Reply by Scott M on May 20, 2009 at 7:58am

Going based on what is in the Bible, and in particular the Genesis story in which the serpent is seen as a satan-figure, I would favorably compare Lucifer to Prometheus and unfavorably compare Yahweh to Zeus. The sky-god wanted to keep humans ignorant (don't eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) and the rebel-god acted to give humans knowledge.

The next account of Satan in the Bible comes from the book of Job, and honestly Lucifer there is an instigator but again it is Yahweh that comes across like a cosmic kid with a magnifying glass torturing and tormenting someone who was honest, faithful, and true.

Then comes the "three temptations" in which Lucifer encourages Jesus to feed himself, then to do a bit of grandstanding (ie. throw yourself from the top of the temple and watch Yahweh save you), and then to worship Lucifer instead of Yahweh in exchange for what looked like it amounted to world peace (ie. all the kingdoms would serve Jesus). Comparing that to the stuff Yahweh commanded in the OT... this is mild stuff at worst.

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Permalink Reply by Gargoyle65 on May 20, 2009 at 8:22am

Elaine Pagels wrote a very good book on this subject. The Origin of Satan.

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Permalink Reply by Karl on May 20, 2009 at 11:32am

I shall have to find it, the book I was reading is more about the devil in early modern England and how the church used the folklorist version of the Devil who came from pagan traditions and had more in common with Pan and nothing to do with the bible and turned him into this universal boogyman who would drag you off to hell if you didn't go to church or didn't bahave as the church told you.
Not that the church would bully simple people into submission with threats or anything like that ;-)

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Permalink Reply by Riaz Ahmed Shah on May 20, 2009 at 1:17pm

Personally ,i have always had sympathy for the devil ,in both its old testament form as well as the Islamic incarnation.Going by how the character of "god" is in both these stories ,any one who has the chutzpa to stand up to him ,knowing full well what powers and attributes he possesses is to me a character of outstanding moral conviction.
And to be so maligned as a result of such an action...

In Islam as the story goes,the devil started out as Iblis, a jinn .he was no ordinary jinn ,he was first among equals.A person of character and courage.he was so respected by all around that god decided to give him an exalted position among the other angels in his dominion.Unlike the other angels who had no choice but to worship, Iblis had a choice.He had the power of will bestowed on him.And he chose to worship god.(who wouldn't if shown a being of unbelievable power and way before Richard Dawkins had a website;))
Eventually a time came when god created man ,from earth ,and he asked one and all to bow down before his creation. the angels did so ,as they were no better than automatons..Iblis on the other hand refused. He wouldn't bow down before anyone but god...and least of all for beings made from earth when he himself was made from fire.
when this story was narrated to me ,i couldn't for the life of me understand why he was despised for this action.Its a reasonable position for him to be in.Sympathy indeed...

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Permalink Reply by Karl on May 20, 2009 at 1:39pm

Cool thats a good story, I wonder if anyone noticed the parallels with the christian version ;-)

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Permalink Reply by Scott M on May 20, 2009 at 1:43pm

I think the moral of the story of Iblis is that no matter how distasteful, one must obey any and all commands God (Allah) gives you. The thing is, as written it was a no-win scenario for Ibliss...

1.) Obey God and you violate the "only bow down and worship God" commandment.
or
2.) Refuse to break that commandment and thus violate the "bow down to mankind" commandment.

It's kind of like:

1. Joe always lies.
2. Joe tells you he is telling a lie.

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