I'm in a relationship with a christian, not the churchgoing type, but the type that all ways prays and reckons god had something to do with... everything i suppose.


We were ok in the beginning but lately we argue allot, especially when we talk about sociology for instance, then to her everything is great because of christianity and the bible bringing morals and such to a savage world, then Id pipe in about how some of the worst wars and genocides where a result of christians and the bible "and that's how the fight began:"   :P


I guess I'm asking if anyone else ran into this problem?

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There are belief systems that predate Christianity that also address morality and social ethics. It's not as if humans were running around without morality before god supposedly imposed them on humanity.

Take into consideration the following core 'Christian' moral rule - the golden/silver rule:

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Historically, this wise little nugget is also proposed by the following religions, cultures and belief systems (a few shorter samples included):

Ancient Babylon
Ancient Egypt
Ancient Greece
Ancient China
Bahá'í Faith
Buddhism "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful."
Confucianism "Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself"
Hinduism "One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self."
Platonism "One should never do wrong in return, nor mistreat any man, no matter how one has been mistreated by him.""

Altruism has even been observed in non human species, such as chimpanzees and some have argued that these altruistic tendencies are also a result of evolutionary processes.

One could argue that moral systems are ingrained in animal species that have a social aspect; morality is not 'owned' by any specific denomination, nor was it originated by any of them.

Which moral codes has Christianity brought to society that did not already previously exist?

May I point out David that Sikkhism does not predate christianity.


Nor do Wicca, Islam or humanism, amongst others

I didn't say anywhere that the list includes only pre-christian belief systems, I simply stated that there are moral belief systems that pre-date christianity.



You are absolutely right!


That's all true, but if I try tell her that shell dismiss it, and go for the "thats only theory" or just proceed to god instilled these attributes to us.

The theory that chimps are altruistic is supported and mirrored by other studies.

That God exists is not supported by any evidence.


It makes me laugh when Christians pooh-pooh scientific studies and claim them to be 'merely theories'. What is god other than a hypothesis/theory that, despite thousands of years of investigation, is yet to yield even the smallest shred of corroborating evidence?


They still can't understand basic reasoning, ie. Hypotheses are posed. These hypotheses are then tested to find out if they hold water.


Hypothesis #1: God created the earth. We have no supporting evidence, therefore the chance of the hypothesis being proven is very low. It has low probability.

Hypothesis #2: Chimps are altruistic. Independent studies support the hypothesis that chimps are altruistic. The studies' findings are significant enough suggest that the hypothesis has some level of probability.


There's nothing you can do if someone doesn't know how to reason. They either get it or they don't.


"god instilled these attributes to us."


Your counter argument would be "so, you're saying that god, before he unleashed jesus on the earth, created hindus and buddhists and pagans too? "


And in terms of god's so-called instillation of so called morality, you can quote dozens of passages from the old testament that demonstrate god's immoral acts: infanticide, torture, slavery, rape, racial cleansing....






yeah, Ill go at it again and see what happens. I think ill be single soon...



She knows the truth regardless of evidence, proof, logic or anything tangible, she knows it is true because it is so ingrained in her mind that it simply has to be true.


You could talk, argue, debate and explain and you wouldn't get a step further in most cases. All you can do is try to be honest in your answers and to be truthful to what you stand for. 


I've deconverted quit a few of Christians but never by using the format of a debate, the best approach is always to ask questions, let them do the talking, let them do the thinking. It doesn't take long before they start to contradict themselves or the bible. 

When that happens, ask some more questions about those contradictions. At some point in time you'll either get told to STFU, or you'll get the "safety net" which is usually an answer along the lines of "you would just have to have faith".


When you're told to STFU, you could answer that this is not the first time that you've reached a point where all you do is ask questions and yet you get angry replies back from insecure Christians that apparently don't have such a strong faith in their god, and that you're surprised at how much difficulty these people have at answering questions that they should've asked themselves a long time ago. 


If they tell you that it's a matter of faith, and that it doesn't have much (or anything) to do with reason, logic etc. you can easily say that you're sorry but you don't have this faith.


It's not a guaranteed approach to success, yet it might just work. Most atheists that I know of that deconverted from a religion have usually started their first steps on the path to atheism by asking themselves questions and to be intrigued and curious about the best answers to those questions. 

In my experience it's difficult to try to 'win' an argument between rationalism/logic and faith. You can really only re-present a religious person's arguments back to them using metaphorical similes to highlight just how erroneous their thoughts are. They will either 'get it' or they won't'

Ultimately you may only highlight the differences between the two very different mind sets.
Good luck!




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