The president of Turkey, Erdogan, held a referendum to rid his country of it's secular government. He threatened that voting against him would have consequences in the afterlife ( in addition to unspoken threats of violence ). So a vote against him is a vote against Allah. Turkey will now be an Islamist theocracy. Of course he is really doing this so he will be an omnipotent dictator. He apparently won, although the outcome is questionable. At least the EU will likely deny Turkey membership. Too bad for the secular citizens.

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I have many lovely memories travlling in Turkey in the 1980s. It was peaceful then, great food and music. The call to prayer happened several times a day with those haunting sounds of Islam. 

I forgot to tell you about another sound that filled the air: car horns. The drivers use their horns to get where they want to go and each car that surrounds the honker feels they have to honk. It is a cacophony beyond belief. The drivers drive bumper to bumper leaving no room to get into or out of a lane. Somehow, horns seem to be part of the strategy and it works. 

Joan that's interesting how some cultures use the horn, probably there's a good Phd thesis in that topic.  Where I live you don't hear a car horn unless there's really a dire near crash about to happen or someone's really ticked off.

Not only will the EU kick their asses, but NATO may have them out as well.  Erdogan has gone a bridge too far this time.

I lived in Turkey for 18 months as a young soldier, in the late 1970s.  It seemed to me at the time, about as secular as the USA.  I thought of it as a poor country, with friendly, hard working people.

I imagine that bordering Syria, Iraq, Iran, make it difficult to remain moderate, although there are many factors that influence what a country does.

We appear to be in an era when liberal democracy is giving way to harsher realities.  I once believed that history moved in the direction of science, enlightenment, liberation, better economy, and more humane world.  I no longer think that.  Even many liberals - especially in academia -  are now scolds and bullies, and work for the tyranny of ideology.   I say that as someone who strongly supports equal rights for all races and ethnicities, sexes, and ages, environmental quality, conserving the planet for future generations, etc.  We each have to make our own reality, while doing our best to be positive influences for others. 

History does have an ebb and flow.  I hope I live to see a time when we move back in the direction of a freer world.

You ain't the only one, Daniel, but the way things are going, I'd say breath-holding is a non-starter.

No shit.

I think it is interesting that the middle east is where science and modern medicine started. Islam was a major step backwards though colonialism and WW1 were factors. How can a major religion condemn music ?

A lot of science and medicine, especially from a Western viewpoint.  But there's also Greece, Rome, China, and probably some others.

John, if drumpf gets impeached and Pence takes office we may find out for ourselves​. Sessions spoke to an anti LGBT hate group a week or so ago. I find that shocking! He refuses to reveal what he spoke about.

It did come out. I posted this last week:

--------

This is getting to be some seriously ugly shit--

BY SUNNIVIE BRYDUM JULY 13, 2017 - Religion Dispatches


THE MOST OMINOUS PROMISES JEFF SESSIONS JUST MADE TO ADF ATTORNEYS


It took a few days and a series of FOIA requests, but Attorney General Jeff Sessions’ remarks at a closed-press meeting with Alliance Defending Freedom attorneys on Tuesday have finally been made public. The Federalist published the remarks in full, while BuzzFeed News reporter Dominic Holden obtained confirmation from ADF that this was indeed the speech Sessions delivered at ADF’s mysterious “Summit on Religious Liberty” in Southern California.

While sections of the speech contain the platitudes we’ve come to expect from this administration about the importance of so-called religious freedom, Sessions also made some tangible promises to the current and aspiring ADF attorneys in attendance. Although some of the language is coded, it’s not hard to read between the lines to understand that the nation’s top lawman just gave the country’s best-funded anti-LGBT hate group the go-ahead to impose its conservative Christian ideology on state and federal laws. He affirmed the Christian victimhood complex that groups like ADF champion, promising that Sessions’ DOJ will never force anyone to abandon their “sincere religious beliefs.”

Following a soliloquy on the secular constraints placed upon the federal government, Sessions signaled that he intends to continue the growing trend of privileging “sincerely held religious beliefs” over civil rights.

Thanks Bertold. I couldn't find it anyplace.

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