Seriously, whats with em? Does anyone else feel like what passes for masculinity now a days is perpetual boyhood? Does anyone else feel like men have been feminized? I'm not advocating a return to the patriarchy of our great grandparents, but I do think that guys need to claim their balls back.

More on this later.

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Well, looks like I started a vaguely defined thread topic and I got what I paid for. Ok, time for some clarification. I'm not looking for any kind of affirmation of my masculinity or anything like that. My intention was to start a discussion on the contemporary definition or gender roles and their consequences. I have noticed a disturbing trend in both media as well as the university that portrays men as lazy, stupid, and destructive. Indeed, such sentiments are on the cutting edge of modern feminism. However, it isn't just a few musky old estrogen mongers who are responsible for this.


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Also on the cutting edge, is the belief that all gender roles and norms are the result of an elaborate socialization which is entirely artificial and can be shaped to produce one set of expectations as easily as any other.

Here's an article on this school of thought.
and the science that contradicts it.

First of all, I think it's very interesting how many men leaped at the chance to defend feminism and the constructivist model of gender roles. For instance, blaming the travails and cataclysms of human history on testosterone is a good way to establish ones self as a non-sexist in the same way that introducing you black friend in a public setting is a good way to establish credibility as a non-racist (it isn't). While I do not intend on bashing feminism (I help to organize and promote my campus's Take Back The Night Rally every year) I do feel that branches of it has morphed into a culturally harmful cartoon of its self and very little is being done to counter it.

What erks me, isn't the angry female zealots who are in need of a good shag. It's the spineless men who internalize and advocate these values so that they may think of themselves as having transcended yet another form of social ignorance. REASON is the only road out of ignorance, not the sacrifice of your own dignity on the alter of reactionary egalitarianism <-not necessarily an oxymoron.

The result is a generation of males who have no standard of behavior worth rebelling against or emulating. The result is a prolonged adolescence and arrested development.
I have noticed a disturbing trend in both media as well as the university that portrays men as lazy, stupid, and destructive.

I agree. It works both ways, with stupid, shallow men and angry, sex starved women in movies and magazines. I feel like the media replicates society and society replicates the media... and we all end up very confused. Every other commercial is an ad for a food or product that will make you smarter or make women sleep with you, or both. Comedy Central ads are mostly alcohol-based. Ironically, the other half are car insurance ads. For women, there's weight loss products, cosmetics, and Wal-Mart. They tend to be based almost solely on aesthetics and emotion. It's not nearly as insulting as the media's interpretation of a man, but it plays on the old idea that for example, a woman buys a car only based on the color (aesthetics) and the feel of it (emotion). Unfortunately, I'm stuck with an unbearable dial-up connection and watching that 30 second ad you posted would take about an hour.

While I'm apparently "over-feminist", I think that the feminists who represent us are insane, and it's unfair that men aren't able to defend themselves in the same way. For example, the no cross-dressing rule at my school ensures that no more boys pose as Cheerleaders at Halloween. (We weren't complaining!!) It's taboo for a man to do many of the things that women do, yet for women it's a matter of "equality". Well, it doesn't sound equal. I wish there were a better word for feminism that would allow us to address both genders. How ironic that we've made equality all about women... The same applies to races. It's "reverse" discrimination when a white person is profiled. Wha?
It's "reverse" discrimination when a white person is profiled.

Ooooh, that really irritates me. No, it's plain racist. Racism is not a disease that only afflicts white people. It affects everybody. I'm sorry my ancestors were dicks - I'm not for the enslavement or second-class status of anyone (except maybe my younger brother, but I'm more for renting him out than anything else ^_^). I'm sorry I was born a middle-class white chick - but no, really, that's not my fault. What can I do to make things better? I'll step in where I see racism happening and tell the shit-head to shut up. I'll support equal rights for everyone, I'll try to be sensitive to cultural/racial differences (like not yelling out to my equally-white friends, "What up ma n****r?!"), and I'll treat everybody with respect.

But when someone turns around and uses that AGAINST me? "Oh, you won't discount my meal because I'm black!" Uhm, no, I won't discount your meal because you kept telling me, your waitress, that everything was fine and the food was great, and only complained and wanted a discount after you'd eaten it all. If that white couple behind you pulls the same thing, I won't discount their meal, either. I'm an equal-opportunity scam-slammer. "We only want a black waitress." I'm sorry, Michelle's section is over there and, as you can see, full. You're stuck with the white chick. I'll try to not let the pasty bleach in my skin seep into your food.

I hate it when people jump all over race at the slightest hint. Like that black professor that was arrested recently. His door jammed and he had to break into his own home. Oaky, fine, the police responded, as they should have. Instead of saying, "Oh, good, you showed up, thank you! Look, I live here, my door jammed, please, take a look at my ID and my address on it, and let me tell you where some other documentation in the house is, to prove that I'm me", he refused to show them any ID, became belligerent, and went off about how they were arresting him because he was black. No, they weren't arresting him because he was black. They were arresting him because he was breaking into a home that he refused to verify was his, and got abusive toward the officers involved.

I heard that he showed them ID, but I also heard that he wasn't exactly cooperative. I'm not really sure either way, I avoid any news that isn't being presented to me at Comedy Central.

I hate that. The population is really, really White here and so whenever I see a Black person, I don't want to do anything that would make them think I'm racist... It doesn't end well because I'm incredibly socially awkward. If this were a more perfect world, I wouldn't have to give it a second thought. But so far, no accusations! Woo!

There are these tests that are supposed to tell you if you have a bias for African Americans or Caucasians... Apparently a lot of the people who were White and were told they had a preference for White people were really ashamed of themselves, whereas Black test-takers were proud of their heritage. It's a completely different culture...

Does being a waitress suck? My cousin got fired for going home with a migraine. Her friend was working with a fever of 102. As if dealing with customers wasn't enough...
I took a test that measure that, I think. It was something about how well you spotted certain nationalities. The thing was, every time it showed an Asian, black person, white person, etc., and asked "Which one is American?", the white person was the correct choice; it buzzed at you if you chose any other. So, I started clicking the white person, because that was the "right" choice for the test (I think it was some dating site? It was back in 2002), and then it told me that I had a preference for my own race, which was completely untrue. I find Asian and Indian women far more attractive than I find white women, in general. Anyway, my point is, is that the way they indicated "correct" and "incorrect" answers led to an obvious bias. If YOU kept getting slapped on the hand for not taking the chocolate chip cookies, would you continue to go for the peanut butter or sugar cookies? No, you'd learn to go for the chocolate chip. To say that you prefer chocolate chip after that is simply ridiculous.

. . . I didn't realise that test was still bugging me so much. Yeah, it WAS a dating site, because it said that it'd put in my profile that I preferred white chicks, and I was insulted because then the pretty Asian ladies wouldn't contact me.

And yes, being a waitress sucks ass. Over-worked, under-paid . . . For what I put up with as a waitress, I should be getting at LEAST $14/hr. People are NASTY and you will HATE them with a passion. You'll also love them, because they're the greatest things ever.

My waitressing-induced Stockholm Syndrome, let me show you it. ^_^ You get to meet a lot of interesting people, and a lot of complete assholes. Sometimes you have great managers, sometimes they suck. Your cousin shouldn't have gotten fired for a migraine. I mean, if it was a medical migraine, a lay in a pitch-black room with earmuffs on migraine, then no, she shouldn't have. And with a fever of 102, her friend could have been infectious. They could have put themselves and other people in danger, because of their conditions.

Although my favourite sick story is when I was having such horrible stomach pains that I was bent nearly double and shuffling slowly around, grimacing despite trying to smile. I couldn't call in sick because two other people had already called in and no one could take my shift, so they stuck me in the smallest section we had (which was also the closest to the kitchen, thank goodness). I had a 4-top come in and order around $25 worth of food, and leave me something like $45 in cash and walked out after they were done. The thing was, I didn't notice the AMOUNT of cash they'd left until after they'd left, and I could barely walk, much less run out and insist that they not leave me an almost 100% tip. It was wonderfully sweet of them, and I still love them for it. At my last restaurant (I'm not actually a waitress any more), I had a 6-top leave me a 30% tip or so, and also a pink crayon kitty out of our toy machines. It was especially sweet because I had just had an 8-top who left me jack.

Anyway, I firmly believe that people should be required to spend 6 months in retail, 6 months serving, and 2 years in the military immediately out of high school. We would have SUCH better-behaved citizens if THAT happened. Sigh, a gal can dream . . . :)
My intention was to start a discussion on the contemporary definition or gender roles and their consequences.

So . . . why didn't you say that in the first place? It's an interesting topic (one that I'll have to come back to), but the way you started out just made you sound like a whiny, insecure, misogynistic, wannabe-macho-man.

Think a bit before you post, take some time to formulate your thoughts (like you've done here), and then post. This is the Internet; you have all day to come up with the least-offensive way to say something. Just sayin'. :)
LarissaFae: but the way you started out just made you sound like a whiny, insecure, misogynistic, wannabe-macho-man.

I didn't have the time to post a well thought out thread topic, that's why I wrote more on this later. If that means suffering the outrage of Eve Enslers goon squad then so be it.
I didn't have the time to post a well thought out thread topic,

It's the Internet, dude. You have time. Leave it for later, jot down a rough outline, whatever. Or simply post, "What are your thoughts on the increasing immaturity and irresponsibility of this generation's men?" Wow. I pulled THAT line out of my ass right now, and it's still less offensive than your post. You may be online, but that's no excuse for being an asshole.

And if you want to compare me to Ms. Ensler, go right ahead. Ms. Ensler has done a lot of work in regards to women's rights as human beings being respected, and speaking out against violence toward women.
What erks me, isn't the angry female zealots who are in need of a good shag.

Maybe they're not angry because they need a good shag. Maybe they're angry because when they're upset over being coddled, when they're upset over being treated like second-class citizens, when they express even a mild irritation at the way they're treated/paid/etc., a good portion of men go off about how they're "femi-Nazi's" (ready to take over Poland and engage in genocide at a moment's notice!), and/or "in need of a good shag."

It's condescending crap like that that makes me angry enough to spit. It's the assumption that women aren't supposed to get angry, but it's a man's right, nay, obligation to get angry and punch things, it's the assumption that because women have uterus's and vaginas, all we want is a big, strong man to protect us and keep us safe in a delicate glass display case whilst we pop out baby after baby, it's the assumption that a woman even wants a sexual relationship with a man, it's the assumption that women are useless in every way if they don't have a man. That is what pisses a lot of women off, myself included.

When I moved into a studio apartment, my very first apartment on my own, my neighbour said to me, not, "Are you moving in with anyone?", not, "Are you moving in with your boyfriend?", but, "Oh, you're moving in with your boyfriend. Nice!" It was the assumption that a woman wouldn't possibly be living on her own without a man, when I seriously doubt that the man who said that to me would have said the same thing if I were a man.

[soapbox] You never mentioned this, and I'm not griping at you specifically (unless you've claimed the following), but I'm also pissed off when people claim that women have done nothing for the fields of science, engineering, etc. Next time a doctor x-rays you, thank physicist and chemist Marie Curie, for her work in radioactivity. The next time a police officer or service-member gets shot and lives because they were wearing Kevlar, or you're able to stop your vehicle in time to prevent an accident, thank Stephanie Kwolek. Women are quite capable of giving human-kind wonderful advancements, thank you very much. [/soapbox]
True! Also, a good deal of the inventions that "men" came up with were really their wives' creations, since women couldn't own property or legally patent anything until . . . until they could.

Here's a partial list.

Sybilla Masters, for example, is often named as the first woman inv... There's more under the link.

And more.

And some North Carolina inventors.

I think somebody's prowling around outside my house. 'Scuse me, gotta go cap a bitch. :)
Good heavens! People make unfair assumptions about you without getting to know you first? My heart bleeds for your life of white middle class oppression. If only I could take you seriously then perhaps your great moral crusade might start making some headway.

You are the very definition of the sexist equivalent of the reverse racist your described in your previous post. That's the problem with third wave feminism, it has no concrete goals and results in a directionless angst and resentment that accomplishes nothing except to feed the the victimhood of someone who is actually quite privileged.




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