Okay... So this discussion topic is taken directly from my blog... "the Atheist Goddess."



I designed this post to be read by Christian Women on my blog... so far... not a single theist has looked at my blog... I hope they change their minds

I am a woman myself, thus my nickname, "the Atheist Goddess." As a woman, I am APPALLED by the percentage of American women who are Christians, even devout Christians. The fact is that there are fewer Atheist women than men out there, which makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to me. The percentage of nonreligious women versus men is this: 70% of Atheists are men, 30% of Atheists are women, 75% of self-proclaimed agnostics are men, only 25% women.

These statistics are very sad and demonstrate a lack of will to rise above the strait jacket and shackles religion has put us in as women.
It makes no sense to me for a woman to continue being religious when ALL monotheistic religions, and a lot of polytheistic religious, are SCREAMING HATE at women!

I hate to break it to you women of Christendom, but GOD AND JESUS HATE YOU!
It's true!
Don't believe me? Let the "word of God" speak for itself!

First... God has sentenced us to be punished FOREVER because Eve took the "fruit from the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil!" - Try to reconcile that with a god who "loves you!" - Newsflash: YOU CAN'T!
No "loving god" would sentence half the population of the world to eternal suffering and slavery because of one woman's "mistake." That's WORSE than the death penalty or life imprisonment!

Here's another little keeper from "god's holy word!" If you, as a woman, sing or EVEN speak in church... you are a sinner!

"1 Corinthians 14:34 - 35*
34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Still not convinced?

I have a MILLION more reasons why women should NEVER be Christians!

1. No matter whether you do good deeds or not you are EVIL... that's what God said... so if you worship God, you must believe it!
"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).

- So APPARENTLY we're responsible for death too.

2. God believes you are WORTHLESS!
"The birth of a daughter is a loss" (Ecclesiasticus 22:3).

3. It's okay to rape US just not okay to rape MEN!
"Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof." - Genesis 19:8

4. If you are unmarried and raped by a man, then God commands you to marry your rapist and "to death do us part."
"If a man finds a woman who is a virgin who is not married, and he forces her down and has intercourse with her, and they are found, then the man that had sex with her shall give her father 50 shekels of silver and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her." - Deuteronomy 22: 28-29


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I'm also surprised at blacks who are christian, first nations who are christians...
Stockholm syndrome is one of the saddest human traits, to willingness to pergure your most inner self in order to protect your body... I don't think I could do that. I would fight to the death.
That's too simplistic an explanation. Sometimes, it's not your body you are protecting. Psychological torture is the worst kind because it does break down your mind. And you have to keep in mind, in this case, it starts more or less from birth.
Admitedly, my reaction was more to an acute rather than a chronic version of the syndrome. Indeed, from the chronic perspective, I really don't know if I would be one to rise up or not, I can only hope so.
You can only rise up if you realize it's happening. I've seen strong people end up in abusive relationships simply because by the time you realize it's happening, you are often already well on your way. It's easy to say you'd fight to the death, but in reality... well, it's not that easy.

And it's not always a matter even of protecting your body. In the cases we've cited, religious oppression of minorities and women, it's often done without a single blow being struck.

When you have to live in a situation, you find a way to cope. The human self-preservation instinct is strong.
To be honest, my dad was violent, and I never learned "to cope". I think some people are born more rebellious than others. And tho I didn't learn to cope, I did learn how to read people, and that's been a very useful skill.

When I think of examples of rising up, I think of French "resisters" during WWII, and the folks who ran the underground railway in North America. They did what they felt was appropriate in the face of tremendous personal risk, they left their comfort zone in order to effect change for others.

I have watched so many documentaries regarding wife beating, and inevitably, the violence was present at the very beginning, but these women have severe shortage in self worth and are willing to ply themselves to the social expectations of marriage/children/home that they do not realize they had options all along.

It's the same as the debate we're having elsewhere on the site about muslim women wearing head coverings, they are themselves perpetuating the "masters'" rules. I have an intense urge to volunteer at women's shelters, but I fear I may not control my anger towards their perps and be tempted to shorten their lifespans.
But you did learn how to cope, you said so yourself. You learned how to read people. You just learned a different method.

I've watched a documentary or two on wife beating myself. I've also actually observed it, and no, many of the women in such a relationship aren't fundamentally flawed. And in many, no, the violence wasn't present in the very beginning.

It took the better part of two years before my sister's husband took his first swing at her. It started out with some basic jealousy issues. He wanted to know where she was all the time. Then he slowly began isolating her from her friends and family. And once she was cut off from her support network, he started breaking down her self-esteem and making her totally reliant on him for all her needs. That's when the violence started.

You should volunteer at a woman's shelter. It would educate you on the reality of the situation on what many women go through.

For starters, it's not as easy to get help as you might think. For example, in some states, you have to have been dating your abuser for six months before a restraining order will be granted to you. Fat lot of help if you pick up the warning signs on the first couple dates. And I've personally experienced that it takes the cops several hours to arrive at a domestic, if they bother to show at all.

And then there is the 'keep your bitch in line' mindset many men have. When my mother tried to leave the military base where she lived with my father because she preferred a civilian hospital, the staff tried to stop her. When she argued, they called my father and told him that he needed to get her home and get her in line. Twenty-five years later, my sister's ex-boyfriend got a similar lecture from his CO when my sister got angry at another soldier for pinching her butt in a bar.

It's easy to say 'oh, well, they had options'. It's easy to say, 'well the women were flawed'. But that's not the whole of the matter, and if you actually talk to the women involved, you'll see that quickly.

The church shares it's portion of the blame. Wives are routinely counseled to stay with their abusive spouses and try to be 'better wives' when they go to a trusted clergy member for help. I learned back when I was 12 not to trust cops when one dislocated my arm in my own front yard because I didn't have ID on me and tried to walk back into the house when he was screaming at me, in spite of me having tried to tell him four times that I lived there. So there are two authority figures out. I had a stalker once, saw firsthand just how hard it is to get help there. So...option left is... Kill him and hope I get away with it, but since the odds are in favor of me not getting away with it, go to jail which doesn't improve my situation and put my kid in foster care which may very well make his situation much, much worse.

Ah, easy answers. How quickly they fall before the force that is reality.
I don't disagree with what you say... by options and "from the begining, I meant exactly what you mention as those "first signs" of violence, the option that's always open is to leave immediately, before things degenerate. I wouldn't use the word flawed it's too harsh. But when those very first signs of jealousy and control set in, I feel someone with properly developped self esteem simply can not let that happen. Now this is no help to women in this situation, religious women, but if parents are too stupid to teach this the educational system needs to do it. There are schools in Canada who have begun teaching this sense of "don't get in my bubble". When you fully value yourself, you don't let other people trample on you, at all. If I worked in a women's shelter, I'd be inciting to violence, probably not a good thing! In one matter, I am lucky, having no children, there will be nothing preventing me from taking the ultimate step if needed. I showed that to my step dad, and I'd show it to anyone who anyone who even hinted at being an ars hole.

You know, I think humanists and moralists infamous "golden rule" is one of the major problems for women. Women generally abide wholeheatedly to "thou shall not kill" and abusers know this full well. His life ain't so precious, and all women in society would do well to realise that.

And no, there are no easy answers. But we need to explore new directions, the forgiving/behaving attitude certainly does not work.
Abusers are charming. That's often what they do. They charm other people so thoroughly that no one actually believes their victim. I've seen that first hand too. Often, the victim ends up being thought of as a complete nutcase and a pathological liar, with her own friends and family siding with her abuser.

You can feel that someone with a properly developed self-esteem cannot let that happen, but..... they do. It happens.

Blaming the victim won't help the situation, either.

As for 'women abiding wholeheartedly to 'thou shalt not kill'', well, you really need to stop lumping all women together and making assumptions. You are speaking right now to a woman who, when a man sexually assaulted her, tried her best to kill him and failed only due to the quick response of EMTs and people pulling me away from him. I still, to this day, take crap for defending myself violently.

You are very lucky indeed. Please stop being judgmental towards those that do not have your luck and your privilege.

It's not just parents, it's not schools. Society as a whole teaches women that they have to be 'nice'.

Way back in high school, a young man asked me out. He gave me the creeps, so I turned him down. The amount of flak I took for not being 'nice' and 'giving him a chance' was ridiculous.

When I walk down the street, I have people yell at me things like 'nice ass'. I'm apparently supposed to think of this as a complement. I'm not allowed to yell back for them to shut up, because that isn't nice. I'm just supposed to be complemented by this objectification. And in spite of all this, I'm supposed to 'properly develop self esteem' and 'fully value myself'?

I can't. Society won't let me. I don't have a penis.
Jocelyn, I am not blaming the victim! I placed the blame squarely stupid parents and religion for not giving women the tools to deal with shitheads like that! Vile charmers use the same techniques as vile marketing, which creates our consumer driven society. A string of lies which people fall for. And I never said not a single woman is willing to "take matters into their own hands" I said a majority. You are obviously not part of that majority as am I not part of it because we are willing to cross that line, however unpretty and unbecoming it is. Interestingly, it's not my parents or my school that taught me that, I was never NOT skeptical about charmers I was just born that way. But given that in N.America a 1/4 of women state they've been abused, I'd say that most women don't cross the line is a pretty safe statement. Those men aren't going to change and we must take appropriate steps. I'm not blaming us for the crime, but we are certainly responsible for reducing its future occurence.
"When you fully value yourself, you don't let other people trample on you, at all."

If she wasn't wearing a tight skirt

"these women have severe shortage in self worth and are willing to ply themselves to the social expectations of marriage/children/home that they do not realize they had options all along."

If she hadn't gone on a date with him

I feel someone with properly developped self esteem simply can not let that happen.

It doesn't happen to nice girls.

Please take another look at your words and try to see beyond your privilege.

You think you would take the 'ultimate' step. Based on my considerable knowledge of psychology I will tell you this fact: You can be broken. All people can. It's easy to brag about what you'd do in a situation that you will probably never encounter. It's far, far different to actually face the reality.

You can brag about being strong and having self-esteem. 1 in 6 women my age are sexually assaulted, most of them by someone they knew and even trusted. If it were simply a matter of having self-esteem, would the number really be that high? Is your opinion of women really that low?

And do you honestly think you can solve bullying by telling the victims to change their behavior? Do you really think there is some sort of behavior women engage in that encourages men to rape or hit them? Why then, are you focusing on the behavior of the women? Are they the ones at fault?

Direct your words against those who actually have the control in the situation. As a woman, I don't make the decision as to whether or not I am sexually assaulted. That's entirely in the hands of the person doing the assaulting. As a woman, I don't make the decision as to whether or not a man thinks I should be beaten into my place. We've been running this 'oh teach the women to defend themselves' crap for years now, and guess what? Doesn't work.

You know what does work? What will help? Look at sexual harassment in the workplace. First stance, 'oh teach the women to change their behavior to avoid being targets.' Didn't work. 'Teach the men what sexual harassment is and nail their asses to the wall if they engage in it?' wow, check it out, instances of sexual harassment dropped dramatically.

Stop blaming the victim. If you want to change the situation, focus on the ones actually responsible. Teach your boys to value women. Teach your boys that they need to get a yes rather than play the 'does no mean no' game. Teach your boys that women have feelings, are intelligent, are worthy. That is, of course, if you actually want to fix the situation.
Unfortunately, since men have been the ones in power in society for the past...well, pretty much since the dawn of time, it is men who created the society, and ultimately, it must be men who must either change or be changed.

Until men accept that women are their equals, without caveat or this 'well women are special in their way' BS, but as actual equals, the problem doesn't stand a chance of being fixed.

That means when a woman is raped, instead of looking at her actions to find a solution, we need to look at the actions and attitudes of the rapist. And that means when a woman is abused, instead of looking at her actions to find a solution, we need to look at the actions and attitude of the abuser. Instead of blaming the victim, we need to fix the problem.

The problem is: Society in general does not view women as equal to men in worth.


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