So... I spent today with a good friend of mine from high school. He is now out of the closet as a gay man and is loving life. However, his very strict christian parents are so against him that they actually think he worships the devil.... Yeah.... I really hate living in the bible belt. Moving on.... I really felt bad for him because they are his parents, but they will never support him in the loving way he needs. I asked my own parents if they would attend my gay wedding if I was gay. My mom said she would but my dad said he could not. Even though I'm straight and love my dad, that hurt me. It really did. After my dad went out, I had a debate with my mom over the homosexuality thing. She is still very against homosexuality.
I asked her if the bible was the entire reason she was against homosexuality. She said yes. I asked her why she doesn't follow many other things the bible says about killing people. She said that the bible does not tell people to kill anyone. It only says not to kill people in the TEN COMMANDMENTS. I read off a list of people the old testament says to kill (It's a long and ridiculous list). She shrugs it off and says that the old testament doesn't matter as much because it was outdated and before Jesus. I tell her that homosexuality is only mentioned 3 times in the new testament. Homosexuality is merely mentioned twice. There is only one sentence in the new testament that is clearly against homosexuality with any detail. I asked her if that one sentence (keeping in mind that it was not important enough for Jesus to mention) was the ONLY reason she was so against homosexuality. She said it was just like any other sin. And I say, but you said that ten commandments in the old testament, which basically tells you what sin is, did not matter. So, if you put so much emphasis on the ten commandments, because you originally said that the ten commandments tell you not to kill, but you also said that the old testament does not matter..... Hm...????? So... if you are following the ten commandments.... isn't that a major contradiction? The bible says kill certain people and don't kill anyone? So how can you trust any sins that the bible says not to do. Obviously the ten commandments should be ignored. But they are the core of sins you avoid. She started to say that the old testament did matter. I asked her why she hadn't killed me yet since I was a non-believer. I went on to say that if Jesus didn't even mention homosexuality then why should you care so much about it? It it's THAT important...don't you think he would have mentioned it once?
You Get the Idea.... It got kind of circular by that point.... XD
Ignore 10 Commandments
Ignore Entire Old Testament (outdated & full of contradictions)
Only what Jesus says is important (Sins in the bible are not clearly defined or important unless mentioned by Jesus)
Homosexuality only mentioned once (in new testament) + not mentioned by Jesus = not important = not a sin
For ANYONE who wants to assert that the OT is non-functional with the advent of Jebus, I got news for them, to wit:
The bossman himself says that every jot and tittle of the law will be observed until all things pass away. That means all of the "law" as outlined in the OT remains in play, including Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 and all their unsupported crap about men lying with men (though you note, they DON'T talk about women lying with women!).
[Just HAD to say this - I'm so sick of christers who want to claim that the NT is a complete reboot of the rulebook when their own head honcho says otherwise!]
Thanks a lot Loren! I did not know about that passage. That would have made my argument a lot simpler. I'll have to tell my mom. LOL! But seriously! That's a very helpful passage... that Jesus clearly supports everything in the old testament in the bible. LOL! Thank you! :D
I'm glad to help, Keri. Further point regarding ammunition for future encounters: The Skeptic's Annotated Bible. It is about as thorough a dissection of the bible (and also the quran and book of mor(m)on!) as you could ask for. I recommend it highly!
Thanks for the Skeptic's Bible link. Already checked it out. It's very helpful. But my parents are so difficult.... They said that passage you posted above was only about the Jesus enforcing the 10 commandment. Sigh...... So frustrating.....
Funny ... nowhere in that portion of his speech does this carpenter-turned-rabbi MENTION the 10 commandments. He just says, "the law." So once again, this opens the field to all sorts of interpretation. Who is to say that "the law" is the 10 commandments versus all the rules and regulations to be found in Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy?
It is an eternal truism that any interpretation as it comes to situations like this will unsurprisingly favor the interpreter's bias. When interpretation can be so varied and inconsistent, the integrity of the source text itself comes into question. Being an engineer, I find that my electronics, physics and mathematics texts need no such interpretation. Ohm's Law, Newton's laws of motion, and Einstein's theory of relativity don't need to be "interpreted." They and thousands of other principles are hard and fast and most importantly, tested and verified. The bible is untested and untestable; its continuous need for interpretation works against its credibility, yet at the same time, the proponents of the bible insist that belief in the bible and its contents are ESSENTIAL to one's well-being in this life and in an unproven life to come.
Why would I want to place such reliance on something so intrinsically variable and unreliable?
"Only what Jesus says is important" 'said'...
indeed. such a fraud those new school jesusers...
check this out!
Another argument I like to make is that Jesus makes it specifically clear that divorce is only acceptable in cases of adultery and that if a person marries someone who is divorced, he/she is committing adultery (see Matthew 5:32, Matthew 19:9, Luke 16:18, Mark 10:11-12). Yet, we allow people to get divorced for many reasons other than adultery and you can marry someone who is divorced. It is a double standard to condemn one sin not mentioned by Jesus (homosexuality) and let another sin (adultery/divorce) be casually dismissed.
Christians talk about the "sanctity" of marriage, but if you can get married in Vegas at 3am by a guy dressed like Elvis, how seriously are we really treating marriage?
In the end people using the bible to justify bigotry against homosexuals is stupid. As already mentioned, there are many things in the old and new Testaments that are not followed today. Dietary laws, laws pertaining to adultery, clothing ect.
The main reason people do not like homosexuality is either because they think its icky, or they were raised to think it was icky.
PS. You could also mention that the bible makes no mention whatsoever about lesbianism. Apparently it did not exist back then:)
Here's another one for her: ask her if she likes Red Lobster ... then point out Leviticus 11:9-12 to her!
Not to mention that there are two sets of Ten Commandments (the ritual decalogue and the ethical decalogue) and that only the ritual decalogue (which is not the popular set of ten commandments) is specifically called "the ten commandments" by God in the Bible.