i've been getting several Birther emails from my Mother and her husband over the past several weeks.  i fear that he is turning her into one as well.  she even voted for Obama in '08.  i've wondered just how deeply rooted it is for him, and, well, i think i just found out:

"The hope from the Administration is that there will eventually be anarchy where the dollar is worthless, houses are devalued and they can force all aspects of the American society into the streets.  BTW, do you own a gun?:) happy"
this was in response to my response to an email "proving" that Obama is a marxist.  i respectfully disagreed with many of his assertations, but i can't say i expected THIS. 
i've already been arguing with my Mother over the contraception issue, and now i'm arguing with them both over Obama.  as some of you know i spent some time on some Right Wing blog yesterday arguing with these Birther lunatics, and i can honestly admit that i wish i hadn't (Loren, you were right).  they are essentially a sub-species of Homo Erectus (as i pointed out in the comments, likely as a result of large jaw muscles needed to ingest mass quantities of beef jerkey, limiting the growth potential of the skull plates and restricting brain growth) and i regret my time interacting with them. 
it's starting to get ugly, just in time for me to be staying at their house in suburban DC this weekend for the Reason Rally.  should i just get a hotel?

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"should i just get a hotel?"

do you own a gun?:) happy

Ha ha… sorry dude, I'm a sucker for a straight line. On a serious note, if you do have a visit with mom and that guy, and "the discussion" ensues, be civil and stick to the facts, and start every counter argument calmly with, 'are you serious?" Hopefully the bigot will take the low road and your mother will get to see him for the batshit-crazy wing nut that he is.

Why does it matter? & what is t birthers point? i asked this question previosly. And t only response i got was "All those guys are nuts".

I understand that their goal is to paint Obama as an illegitimate candidate. And i understand that the rules for running for president are such that naturalized citizens are disqualified so that Schwarzenegger cannot run because he was born Austrian.

But Obama was born an American because he had American parrents. So why does it matter where he was born? Why does it matter what his birth certificate says?
If an American gives birth while visiting another country, then the baby is American, yes?

So why does it even matter any more than what kind of paper the certificate is printed on?

"Why does it matter?"

Because it's his mom.

As for the other issue, why are there "birthers"? 

"All those guys are nuts" Pretty much sums it up. But, it's also a mudslinging tactic, based on a principle remarked on by the late Samuel Clemens: "A good lie will have travled half way around the world while the truth is putting on her boots."

The Right panders to the lowest common denominator electorate in regards to the incredulous, it's an important constituency for them.

Check out the 14th amendment to the U.S. Constitution. This deals with citizenship, who has and doesn't have it. Has roughly 4 sections:

  Citizenship Clause

  Due Process Clause

  Equal Protection Clause

  Other clauses pertaining to the Confederacy (this was passed in 1868, right after the Civil War).

For this discussion, the citizenship clause applies.

And no, both of Obamas parents weren't citizens. Just his mother. But he was born in Hawaii, which was a state, last I heard,so that makes him a citizen.

And if an American gives birth in another country, most times, but not always, that does give the baby birthright citizenship. 

Really to much to go into here, dual citizenship, renunciation of citizenship, etc. Just google 14th amendment. You can really learn alot.

"And if an American gives birth in another country, most times, but not always, that does give the baby birthright citizenship."

This has changed several times, even in the last few decades. My mother had dual citizenship (Canada/US), there was a time where I was eligible (US) if I had applied, but the laws have since changed. There's more to this policy than the 14th, just saying'… So, despite being "half-American" any permanent or temporary residence here in the US still requires a visa.

Republican Senator John McCain was born in Panama BTW (US Naval Base loophole).

And when I pointed this out to some birthers,(about McCain) they always denied it at first, then came back with "his father was in the military". True. But when I would say something along the line of "well Hawaii is a state last time I checked, therefore Obama is a citizen" and would show the birth certificate online from the state, they would still deny it. There is a nurse I work with who was born in Hawaii. She has the exact same certificate of live birth that the president has. Never been told she wasn't a citizen. Oh well.

If someone does study the 14th amendment, there are many different court interpretations and rulings over the years. You're right. There is a lot more. That's why I suggest to people don't just stop with the 14th, but read some of the court cases involved. Quite fascinating reading. Nothing is ever as simple as it seems. Just couldn't list them all here, or I would be typing for days. Thanks, my friend. Always great.

BTW, I reserved my spot in the van tonight, …going to DC for the Rally.

One of our group is the flag bearer for the opening ceremonies, how's that for cool?

If Mr. Obama was married to Mrs. Obama, he could have been a citizen too.  Tho I suspect he didn't apply for citizenship.  It's moot anyway, since he was born in Hawaii.  I can't believe this is still an issue.  Why don't they concentrate on something more useful, like UFOs?

thanks for that Pat.  made me laugh and feel a little better. 

it's just that it's tough enough being opposed to my family religiously.  and as far as politics goes i know it can get very opinionated.  so long as the conversation remains rational it's fine.  we don't talk religion b/c it's an area we have zero common ground, so as we've started to talk politics at least we've been able to see some areas where we agree on.  until now.  extremism is something that i cannot stand, and to know that he (in particular) is one of those fanatics is quite jarring. 

i guess we can always talk about the weather...

that's about as good of a theory as i can imagine. 

I can't deal with birthers and bigots.   I wold get a motel room.  I'd out to lunch with mom.  Tell her that I love her, but to keep the peace I don't want to get into any arguments with step-dad.  Sad that intolerance would divide a family, but it wouldn't be the first time.  To keep the peace with my family, I stayed on neutral topics for decades.  It was hard, but you only live once.  At least for me, I didn't want to live knowing that I drove a wedge between myself and my parents in their aging years.  It makes me sad that they died without being able to share some of who I am, but I feel good that I took care of them.   I did much more for them than I ever told them, or that they ever knew.

By all means, if you have the money, find a group of like-minded people and hang out with them over coffee, food, chat time. You will learn far more from those experiences than either not expressing yourself to your family, or expressing yourself and then having to build up barriers of protection. The really rich part of these gatherings is the interaction with people who struggle with basic changes of values taking place. It happened to me in the Civil Rights movement, and can happen with you in this very important transition period. It is not just that you and a few other people are making basic changes, our entire culture is changing, conflicts rise, heat and energy becomes more intense, and out of that chaos comes a new paradigm shift. Unless it becomes a riot ... that is a different story. 




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