Dutch Muslims are feeling under siege, with proposed legislation that would ban the ritual slaughter of animals for halal meat because it's been argued that it causes the animals unnecessary pain.

According to this article, the Dutch government is also intent on imposing conditions on new immigrants, among which are learning the Dutch language and accepting Dutch values. In addition, legislation is being drawn up that will make wearing the veil illegal after January first.

I have mixed feelings about this. On one level I see it as Dutch society setting ground rules that say "If you want to live here, you have to live according to our values", and that seems perfectly reasonable to me. On another level, many ordinary Muslims are bound to interpret it as a "You're not welcome here" message, as illustrated in the article, and I think that's sad.

I suppose it's all grist to the mill of the growing clash of cultures in Europe.

Views: 90

Replies to This Discussion

kosher is almost the same thing. they have to have the animal fully awake and concious. they have to do a little cerimony that makes the animal aware that it is about to die. and then they slit the throat and just let the animal thrash around and bleed out.

naked lunch man...

at least the modern slaughter houses are a bit more humain about the prosess and dont ritualy "torture" the animal before hand.

get used to it people. this is where all that yummy meat comes from.

I wana see all the cows in India turned over to McDonnelld's!.

mmmmmmmmmm.....krisna burgers!

ethically killed meat.

carnivores unit!

modern slaughter houses are a bit more efficient and humain about it and dont cause the food animal any undue torture by leaving the spinal cord intact.

the pain and torture of the animales in ritual slaughter is painfull and unduley distresseng to the food animal.

I dont want my food animals to unduly suffer.


Here's an extract from a press release issued by the Dutch government (so thoughtful of them to publish it in English for our benefit). It clarifies what they're planning to do. Also, I should point out that the press release refers to requiring immigrants to "learn about Dutch society" - not merely "Dutch values". That would probably mean understanding things like their system of government, history, economic base, education system and so on, as well as the values that define them as a nation.

Integration policy will no longer target specific groups. Anti-social and criminal behaviour will be combated without regard for ethnic origin. Mr Donner also assumes that the general labour market, education and housing policies enable all citizens to build a life for themselves in accordance with their ability. The letter sets out the following measures in the area of integration, engagement and citizenship:
● the Civic Integration Act will be amended and made more rigorous;
● grants and measures for the integration of specific groups will be terminated and incorporated in general integration policy;
● a bill dealing with forced marriage under criminal law will be introduced, and prevention of forced marriage will be made a priority;
● a bill will be introduced banning face coverings in public;
● a common agenda for modern citizenship will be drawn up in cooperation with municipalities, civil society organisations and citizens.

ya...its called induction and muslims are getting away with going without it. they say it violates theere religion. fuck em....if they dont want to live like 21st century humans....fuck em...kick em out....dont let them in....and/or send them back to the middle east.!

IF they choose to grow up and out of there sandstorm delusions and agree to live like civilized humans welcome them with open arms!

and make it very plane that that is the option!

act like a civilized person and be welcome.

act like a 12th century savage and you can just turn around and get the hell out.

nothing wrong with that or the wording.

cuts through the bullshit.

Yeah, I still think there's a reason they're not being welcomed.

the matter is an easy one. dont want to live like an inteligent, rational, social human...get the fuck out a my house!

nothing wrong with that at all.

if someone that I invite over to my place to live wants to do things that violate logic and scientific/real understanding of this world and the fact that its MY house and I set the rules....they can just get the fuck out!

I think that these "dutch" values are going to turn out to be more or less universal.

like dont kill your daughter because you dont like her boyfriend. dont beat your wife. dont keep your kids stupid.

that sort of thing.

it canceles out some freedomes yes....but these freedomes are the freedom to be stupid, ignorent, antisocial, delusional, murderously suicidal....etc...

fair trade off I think.

An argument could be made for the requirement for people who live in Holland, to learn Dutch.  I know it's considered ethnocentric for us to require that people who live in the US to learn English, but there are practical implications.  Where I work, we often require interpreters, it takes about 3 times as long to do the same task as with someone who is English speaking, plus the information is often much more flawed - there is no oversight on interpretation and it is often vague and difficult to establish if things are understood.  What the nonEnglish speaker gets in the end, no matter how hard people try, may be less than what the English speaker gets.  Plus, it takes time and costs money to hire interpreters.  It's not just about stores and schools, imagine a police officer's dilemma when pulling over someone who they can't communicate with.  Imagine delivering a baby for someone who you can't communicate with.  Diagnosing an illness.  It's not too much to ask people to learn the language of the country where they move.  They may never be fluent, but they can learn some.  In addition, while you may find a Spanish interpreter easily, I've also needed Russian, Vietnamese, Ghanan, and Bosnian.  It makes sense for everyone to learn the language where they live, no matter where they come from.


I don't know what it would mean to accept Dutch values.


The veil issue gets hashed and rehashed.  I'm not sure I care about that one.  I wonder if nuns are also going to have restriction on what they wear - although I suspect there aren't many nuns in habits anymore anyway.


Most likely, muslim people are finding themselves less welcome in many places.  The same is true for any immigrant minority when the numbers reach a certain threshold, enough that there is perceived impact on the "host" society.  Then it can be difficult for all concerned.  Maybe a civilized society needs to find ways to accomodate but might also have some expectations - a dance of rights and responsibilities, of opportunity and adjustment.  On the other side, for a Dutch woman to go to, say, Saudi Arabia and try to get by dressed as she would in Holland, would not be welcome either.

I don't see a problem in people having a common language at least to the point of knowing enough of the common language to get by, but it is not as easy as just saying "everyone should speak [insert language]". People don't willingly not learn the language. Some free "learn English" courses are available but the person still has to take time out of their job, get transportation, etc. It might take just as much effort to ensure that everyone speaks the language as it does to hire translators.



Update Your Membership :




Nexus on Social Media:


© 2017   Atheist Nexus. All rights reserved. Admin: Richard Haynes.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service