A new study conducted informally by me by observing people shows that nobody knows how to flirt.

Men don't know how to do it. Women don't know how to do it.

This is the source of the great divide [when there is one] between the sexual side of the [a] person and the simple-social side, as flirtation is the bridge.

I suppose flirtation doesn't happen as often even among people between whom it would be apt because they're not serious to any degree and they feel like they'd just be being a tease to flirt and not follow up [with more, like, commitment-y, on-off binary relationship-y stuff], so, wanting to be nice people and seeing flirtation without [such] follow-through as rude, they abstain from flirtation in the first place.

Worsening the divide are the loose freaks who are in opposition to the stance that people who [just] want to get along well in society hold. I'm talking about the "loose" people: manwhores and pairs to [of] women that troll together for three-ways with strange men, and such and the like. Noting these freaks' "flirtations", the good people of society don't want to do anything that could make others confuse them with those freaks, so the chasm has a fence erected around it.

Really, the "flirtations" of such people are to flirtation as methamphetamine is to dopamine. It may simulate it and be indistinguishable [from it] without analysis [(according to the brain, in the case of meth)] but it is fundamentally a different thing. Back in metaphor-land, the manwhores and ubersluts are launching themselves across the chasm in a freaking CANNON. It gets them across, but it is fundamentally different from the bridge that genuine [actual] flirtation is.

While these cannonballs fly across, people forget about bridges and simply resign themselves to these drastic measures and an unscientific, gambling style of finding their way to the other side each time.

Only the [archetypical] massive failures ever get [have gotten] popularized, and those who've never been exposed to realm of flirtation at all [only] get a view of it as [being] mostly made of [instances of] guys being retards, women hurting others' feelings [in wholesale-ly rejecting them], and of random pairs of men and women meeting [each other], being in friggin' love immediately, and each seeking the other from Millisecond One. With only so polarized a set of representations [available to most people], the [that] highly multi-shaded [portion of the real] world that falls in [is] the realm of flirtation is left with its subtle darks and lights of grey indistinguishable from each other to those 'most people' without loads of practice.

Flirtation is not something that you can 'jump' straight into [at all]. Flirtation is something indistinguishable from normal conversation at a distance or at low levels. It will start as an interaction that can go anywhere,--to flirtation etc., to a fight, to a business arrangement, or anywhere else--and then the character of the interaction may get changed by changes in the content which happen in ways that may be sudden yet subtle, subtle yet sudden, or somewhere in between. The misconception of flirtation being like a pool where you can just jump in--[having a distinct, switch-like, on-off state]--has hurt a lot of people and opportunities.

[Editted, uglified, and sensible-ized on 19Mar2010]

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Replies to This Discussion

Are you referring to moi? =)
Flirting is retarded. I read a book about how to seduce women and I was not able to actually do anything it said. People should just talk naturally, give out their contact information and then continue to talk or meet and see each other until a guy and girl realize their interactions constitute a relationship.
Talking unnaturally and simply trying to seduce others is the kind of so-called "flirting" I meant to defame.
Can you talk naturally and seduce women? Why do you think the talking will be un-natural?
There has appeared to me to be a certain unspoken opinion among much of the public that the sole, or sole viable, way to go with some person from being strangers to having sex is via a certain kind of interaction that feels very unnatural to me. Beyond my immediate, emotional reaction to instances of this style of interaction that I mentioned, I have repeatedly reasoned that this particular style (which I find nearly impossible to describe) cannot be useful for the majority of the interactions in which people will engage even in their free time. The slight but characteristic guilt-giving, manipulative element of this sort of sleazy, so-called "flirting" that is rather well-known due to how infinitely abnormal and thus obvious it is could not possibly last as the main fabric of interactions in friendships and the like over large numbers and varieties of friendships and their ilk. (Relationships, including friendships, of manipulation and control do exist, but, as I have observed that people react to news of instances of such relationships as shocking, I judge that they are very atypical.)

I find that greasy "flirting" to be alarming, disturbing, and less effective than that which I would prefer to become the norm of flirting and which I have previously referred to simply as flirting in the hopes of getting the ball rolling.

I hope I've already rendered an adequate response. In case your actual questions were actually meant just as the questions that they are, I respond to those next:

"Can you talk naturally and seduce women?"
Probably; but honestly I neither know nor particularly care.

"Why do you think the talking will be un-natural?"
See the last non-parenthetical sentence of the big paragraph above.
I don't know what to make of your attitude toward flirting, and is this the same as seducing women? What if I just tried to talk to a women in an approximately natural way or pretend I am completely comfortable, possibly trying to follow what I read in a book I have about how to seduce women, and then at the end of our second date or activity or meeting, I would somehow, in the right intonation, mention that I have never hooked up with a women before, and ask her about doing the honors or however I should mention sex, and mention that I live alone and it would not be a problem for us to come to my apartment and as necessary, using the style I got from a few books about being persuasive and assertive, mention how important this is (so that I will like her or accept her as more than a platonic friend because if she can't do it soon than she might or might not remain a platonic friend while at the same time I am doing everything possible to find someone else who can, in fact, do it).?




Sex isn't magic. If you find a women who thinks it is, then the great amount of tension that you seem to me to have within yourself about your virginity will, combined with her mindset, at least make it too awkward to bring up sex. You can actually bring that up in your first, third, or whatever/whichever conversation, paragraph, or whatever so that it's out there and a potential topic of discussion and thought, and I recommend doing so as it is clearly of great import to you.

--*click* *whir* *buzz*--

I'm pretty sure that "my" "flirting" is not the same as seduction in any way that could leave seduction with any of its original definition.

Reading the sort-of-story in your long question, I've got a lot of things to say in response:

If your "natural" comes across as "unnatural" to others, then either, 1. change your "natural", or 2. stick completely with your "natural". I'm pretty sure that this is effectively an either/or choice where choosing a grey area leads to significantly higher failure rates.

If you are uncomfortable around women, you must become comfortable. Well, you should, that is. There's no rational reason because of which to be consistently uncomfortable around women, and with greater comfort come less need to pretend to not be uncomfortable, less effort spent on that, and more effort available to put into actually interacting and such.

If you have trouble with your voice intonation, then work on it.

If you have trouble with X, then work on it.

One thing at a time. It is clear that you have a lot of doubt about a lot of variables. Please start working on at least one of them and get a good data set and sense of normal for it.

Okay, I'm finished.
I Usually I don't go to bars because I don't drink, and I haven't found any events or places in the Columbus, OH area to go to where I might meet other women close enough to my age where I can talk to them- you cannot just talk to random strangers you see in public. When I do try to talk to women in public I worry about who else around me is hearing me and whether I am being a darn fool. My natural behavior is that I am normally not social and I don't even have platonic friends I see regularly.

There has to be something different from a girl I meet who is close to my age and my mother or aunt. It is quite important to get something more than platonic friendship and be accepted by a girl close to my age, and there are probably somewhere between several hundred and several thousand or more women in existence who could suffice. But in order to show that she actually likes or accepts me, we have to have sex, not necessarily immediately, but sometime, and if she cannot do it I will probably be disappointed and take it personally and think the relationship is over. I don't really want to start something with a girl who will only do it after we are married and then find out that she does it too infrequently.

So I will have to somehow mention sex at some point after I meet a girl, or somehow weave it into a conversation while acting like it is the most normal thing to mention.
As long as you can get a feel for how you'll likely come across to others, you actually can go up to random strangers in public. Although random places like grocery stores and bookstores aren't the stereotypical places to find mates, they may well be better, since people don't tend to play gamey roles as often in such places; of course, the role-fitting needed to initiate interaction will be different in a bookstore etc. from a bar etc.

I suppose that you could mention the exchanges you've had through this site as an event in your life, since people tend to converse about events, as your awkward wedge to bring it up.


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