"Religious apologists, spiritualist gurus, and accommodating atheists have been bombarding us with assertions that science and religion have no reason not to get along. This may be politically convenient, but it's simply untrue. Science and religion are fundamentally irreconcilable, and they always will be.

"Faith is belief in the absence of supportive evidence and even in the light of contrary evidence. No one disputes that religion is based on faith. Some authors claim that science is also based on faith. They argue that science takes it on faith that the world is rational and that nature can be ordered in an intelligible way.

"However, science makes no such assumption on faith. It analyzes observations by applying certain methodological rules and formulates models to describe those observations. It justifies that process by its practical success, not by any logical deduction derived from dubious metaphysical assumptions. We must distinguish faith from trust. Science has earned our trust by its proven success. Religion has destroyed our trust by its repeated failure."

~ Victor Stenger


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May I share this on Twitter with attribution to you? Or, if you don't want your name attached, with initials or first name?

Two arguments against gods:

1. There are millions of imaginary gods, which exists?

2. How big is a god? Less than an elementary particle, or bigger, than Universe?

Hi Joan,

The main reason that religion and science are irreconcilable is the simple fact that Religion is based not so much on Faith, but Magic.  Magical Origin Stories, Magical Healing, Magical Changes, Magical Plagues, Magical just about everything.

Magic cannot exist in science, because magic exists at the whim of the Magician, which cannot be categorized, measured nor predicted.  Thus it cannot ever be considered in Science.

In science, events and properties must follow a pattern that once studied well enough will have predictable outcomes, so that identical and very similar events and properties can have fairly accurately predicted outcomes using derivatives of the same pattern.

No such predictable patterns exist if the outcomes are simply at the whim of a Magician.

Thus Magic/Religion has no place in Science.

They are obviously completely Irreconcilable.

Faith in the abilities and nature of a Magician/god, is completely different to Faith in a well tried, tested and proven procedure or Theory like Evolution!

Aye Joan!

OK, Loren Miller, David Layton, Idaho Spud, Vulpes, Craigart14, kzoltan, and GOD'aye, We have developed the rationale of why science and religion cannot be reconciled.

What are positive and rational ways of expressing celebration of science as means by which we understand life/death and the processes that occur?

Educating ourselves to those processes as we replace belief in superstition.
Learning about our individual attributes, developing them and refuse to submit to expectation of others and social norms.
Working hard to maintain the kinds of lifestyles each one of us desires while appreciating the opportunity to make a living.
Build community with like-minded people in exploration and experimentation even as we celebrate together.
Tap into all aspects of mind, body and spirit through expressing ourselves, listening to others, enjoying aromas that please our senses, creating the fine art of tastes, hearing the sounds of nature, feeling pride and self-respect, feeling gratitude for all those who come into our lives, writing, reading, enjoying fine arts, dancing and singing to music and tapping into all our creative, imaginative, exploratory aspect of living. Finally, perceiving death as part of life, not to be afraid but to be grateful for having lived at all.

Tribute to Richard Dawkins: We Are Going to Die

Richard Dawkins Christopher Hitchens TEXAS FREE THOUGHT 2011

My opinion is, that the only conclusion is:
Science researches the reality and developments of matter. One development of matter is the human brain's activity. Religions are results of billions different human brains activity.

I think that what you assert depends on how you define religion.  Certainly the Abrahamic religions (and others) are mutually exclusive with science.  But you include spirituality in your claim, and I can't agree with that.  The definition of the word religion has changed dramatically in the last 200 years.  It used to also include the idea of a personal worldview - which has nothing to do with gathering adherents.

The problem with spirituality is the same as with religion - how do you define it?  "Spirituality" seems to be a catch-all for everything from those who want a prime mover but no religion to go with it to those who associate spirituality with awe and wonder.  As for myself, I cut the word down to its root - "spirit" - and my question is simple: is there anything that can be directly associated with the word?  What spirit, where is it, how is it quantified?  I can feel both awe and wonder without associating either with a supernatural agency.

Spirit and spirituality have no more practical referent than god does, and I dismiss them all.

I don't believe in the supernatural.  If it exists, it's natural.  The term spiritual fits lacking another word -- perhaps consciousness?  I don't know  what else to call it and be understood.

Certainly the concept of entanglement has been proven, and that brings up another dimension.  Is it a supernatural dimension?  Heck no.  If it exists, it's natural.  But it should not be ignored any more than dark energy and dark matter should be ignored. They may be invisible to the eye, but they can be indirectly measured.  Can my beliefs be objectively measured?  Some of them yes.  But some can only be subjectively measured, but when a prepronderance of often repeated evidence supports my view, there is nothing wrong with  my accepting it.

As I do not seek to force my beliefs on others, what's the problem with  my creating and defining a worldview that has a non-deity energy component?  It seems to me that when atheism starts demanding that my views conform to some standard, then atheism is turning itself into a religion.

Feel free to dismiss what you want.  That's what we have brains for.  That's what freedom is about.




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