Both my wife and I are both ethical Vegans, We both find in disturbing how few people within the atheist community don't see the dietary indoctrination that surrounds us in the same way that they do Religious dogma. In some ways the two are often very related.....


Discussion please:




Vegan Ape

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Replies to This Discussion

If you look through you will find plenty, you just have to think laterally. For example a lot of information comes from one of the most unexpected sources and that is for "seventh day eventist" studies. they are often used in studies when it comes to vegetarian diets as they have very large communities. I will post some links to peer reviewed journal articles when I post the daily diet summary later this week.

well that makes sense....... as they are vegetarians.... :)

Veganape - what do you think about free will and determinism?  I think this relevant to the talk because if you believe in free will, it has a different outcome when considering these matters of ethics and morals and also why and how people do what they do, and also how we deal them them and how we change people in what they do and think.......  so just wondering what your position was on free will and determinism?

Of course I acknowledge the existence of free will.....before einstein it appeared that newton had proved free will to be a false perception but due to Quantum mechanics we now know different. However that is the difference between macro and micro anyway. So from a micro point of view yes I think we have freewill, But no amount of will stops you falling of a cliff under newtonian motion. With great power, Freedom and ability, Comes great Responsibility. But This does not require you to be ethical, you can be a nihilist if you like. The problem I have is ethics that are only taken as far as is convenient, As this is not truly ethics. I especially detest the border we draw between us and other animals and I still stand by my point that this is as much caused by religion as Homophobia.

   To add to this humans even have standards of cruelty that apply to a pet but not to livestock. That is convenience not ethics.....

vegan ape - ok you have brought up a few points there - 

I don't believe we have contra causal free will - quantum machanics gives us the possiblity of randomness at most - which can in so way be considered free will - so we are left with determinism with the slight possibloity of randomness.... either way we don't have free will.

The other issues of ethics, convenience, borders between us and animals, homophobia and cruelty - we can discuss shortly....  

I would agree but that slight possibility when it comes to brain function is plenty enough to provide freewill when you consider the number of neurones in the brain and the complexity of each neurone. I would equate the existence of a human as maybe close to predetermined but not actually predetermined, Where as due to the sheer complexity of the brain and the quantum effects within the equation I would consider that it could at least loosely be considered to have free will. But none of this negates your ability to stop eating meat or mine to start.......

when you can see that we all do what we do - not because we are gods outside of the causal web able to perform magic - but because we are fully caused to do so......  by many factors.....   you are vegan because you were fully caused to get to that place - I am currently eating what I'm eating because I have been fully caused to be in the place that I am....  there is nothing predetermined about it - no one has created a plan for any of us, space or time - we just see it unfolding as it does....  you will only eat meat if you are fully caused to do so - and I will only stop eating meat if I am fully caused to do so - neither of us has any free will to do either. :)

No that is a simple Newtonian view that has been disproved. Reality on a macro scale seems as such only because it is the some of all probabilities of he micro hence it is very likely you will not loose an arm from a quantum fluctuation, But you may certainly make a bad decision based on a quantum fluctuation. You must separate the macro and the micro this is what einstein began to show us and many more have evolved the theories further still. I can recommend Brian greens "an elegant universe". A very good read and available in audiobook if you are short on time..... I can expand on this further by saying that it is due to these random fluctuations that we have a universe at all, Otherwise matter would never have existed and we would have a uniform void as a universe.

mmm  I really don't think that the existence of all things is so unstable - quantum mechanics is on the cutting edge of science - and so people seem to think that gives them option to create all sorts of wild and wonderful stories - sure one of them might be the right answer - but no one yet knows - so let's stick to what we do know for now :)

|I haven't walked through many walls lately and I've still got both my arms :)

Quantum mechanics is not on the cutting edge of science and is well understood. Most components in your computer rely on its predictability of uncertainty. I am not talking quantum computing here just simple components like volatile and non volatile ram, transistors even the humble capacitor. It is well studied and well known, Has never made a prediction that was incorrect. Do not confuse the science of quantum mechanics with woo woo mechanics like "the secret"  two totally different things and I think they should be sued for defaming a theory by the einstein foundation.....

well I've seen heaps of shows with physicists whose catch phrase is - if you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics.....  and I've seen all the stuff about the secret - I like the chasers war take on the secret best - especially their finding a parking spot piece..... look on you tube... very funny.... :)

As I said "quantum mechanics is not fringe science" string theory is fringe science but quantum mechanics is a a very predictable effect, it is true that it is difficult for the human mind to comprehend the contradictory behaviour of particles but as a working theory that makes repeatable predictions it has never failed. As I said all your modern electronics relies on the predictability of quantum effects, I can assure your the actual predictions made are well understood. What is not so well understood are the causes for the behaviours observed. As I said I recommend you read brian greens "an elegant universe" or some of hawkings works as this will confirm these facts. However I totally agree with the miss use of a factual scientifically complete theory as in some way support of woo woo the secret. 




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