Both my wife and I are both ethical Vegans, We both find in disturbing how few people within the atheist community don't see the dietary indoctrination that surrounds us in the same way that they do Religious dogma. In some ways the two are often very related.....
ok so it has a very predictable effect - meaning it is determined like regular physics..... I'm sorry I don't know about the details of QM - I understand theories such as string theory and the brain theory - but not in depth..... only from documentaries I've seen over the years.... none of them were about how to build computers...... :)
Still QM as we know it doesn't offer free will.....
You have to watch this:
"ok so it has a very predictable effect - meaning it is determined like regular physics"
No physics a the subatomic level is not deterministic and as a result the macro world is only 99.999999999^.% determinable. However as far as neurones go they straddle the macro and micro world hence and result they come out with may not be what we expect if it were we would have a much better understanding of this behaviour. To date it is the predictability of probability in the subatomic world that we can predict not actually a deterministic outcome. Not enough coffee hope that makes sense....
I have given a better idea of this in the "are you 100% sure there is not a god" Thread.....have a read through if you get a min....Yes I love the chaser guys.
We are talking about morality here - with many of these arguments it's just a matter of where you draw a line - in terms of life where do you draw the line between what can be killed and what can't be killed? And what do you base this line on? Consciousness? Empathy? Threat or fear? - morality have evolved in us as it was adaptive to our need to act in groups to hunt and protect each other in changing conditions from trees to plans living - morality is so that we can be kind to each other and helping the group was helping ourselves.
I think it is a mistake to apply our moral ability to other life forms - bar animals that assist in our protection and hunting - such as dogs. In terms of the evolution - although I do also accept that evolution moves on, and other adaptions may be found - a tool can be used in different ways and therefore evolve in a different direction - such as gills used as hearing device, or stomach changed to breathing apparatus.
It may be that using our moral compass towards other animals may be a superior adaption for survival, IF vegans are more adaptive to a world of high population and dwindling food stocks. But as we have so many causal factors to consider - I would not attempt to guess as to how this will go.
I would deffinately agree that it is a moral issue as far as personal choice goes and in relation to the well being of other animals. However I think it is more an issue of technically thought out options when it comes to Veganism to assist in reducing climate change. So I suppose if climate change were not an issue then it would just be an issue of morality. It is not a straight forward issue and it is true the line will be different even for each Vegan. I think Veganism is more of an ideal we can aspire to and that may be applied differently by each individual, depending on their local environment and resources. So long as you aspire to constantly be aware of your actions as best you can and be honest with what is more justification of convenience, then you are probably doing your personal best anyway. An example of this is that I give blood every 3 months now yet I do it on behalf of both my wife and I as she has health issues that could make blood donation just a little to taxing on the body. In return my wife makes sure I am well fed and hydrated prior to donation and in recovery, So it is a symbiotic attempt to achieve a moral outcome. The same can be said for the first world becoming vegan so as the third world can evolve through in the way they need to. Just as we should be the first to curb our carbon emissions so to should we be the first to go vegan. Unfortunately most things come down to money so I suppose the best option is just to put a carbon tax on meat and dairy. The was proposed but the animal agriculture lobby was to strong and forced an exemption, that was week on the Govs behalf. In summary If you can honestly justify your inability to move towards veganism and I think some can, then at least they should respect the contribution that those who are vegan are making on their behalf, unfortunately most people treat vegans with contempt . I think you are right but, only time will tell wether people see this as an easy to achieve option in life or not. It is good to remember that a change away from animal production per person is much more significant than even trading your car for a push bike in terms of CO2 emissions.....So maybe the carbon tax can help over time....cheers
I totally agree with you - I think that if people treat vegans with contempt it is because their consciences are pulled and they don't want to hear it. As I have already gone down that road I don't have the guilt - and can perhaps discuss it more objectively.
I do accept the possibility of an environmental advantage to veganism.
And I welcome the evidenced based introduction of taxes and other government legislation that guides human behaviour to make better choices - such as a junk food tax also - to improve better food choices and discourage un-healthy eating.
How about we draw the line at - not harming others. When selfishness is not our only guide, we can "apply our moral ability to other life forms", like our relatives, the other animals.
Agreed dogly, but I would harm any human whaler in a heartbeat to defend those beautiful sentient creatures. Unfortunately we may one day need to create a positive moral change with some level of violence, This said It may matter very little as I do not think that 99 percent of people are viable occupants of the planet and will prevent any positive changes in society. For this reason I think the best we can hope to be is some kind of rebel force that fights back to protect our fellow animals from the greed and contempt of most humans...
insecticide - grizzly bear attack - antibiotics -
humans do better on a diet that has variety - including fish, meat, eggs, honey
there is an argument that in the future vegan adaptions will prove superior in survival and the survival of the environment - the jury is out on that....
Alice, you have my permission to defend yourself the next time a grizzly bear attacks you. Just pleeeease, stop trying to discourage veganism over and over and over again.
Dogly - I am stating my position - I'm not against people who want to be vegan, or who support vegan ideals. It's not for me - but I do like to keep in touch with all the reasons and evidence that supports a vegan lifestyle.
If you wan't to see the best evidence for a vegan diet DR M. Greger says it best. Check out his website.
His is the most scientific and research based evidence you will get for a vegan diet.
For me personally I manage to give blood and pass my anemia test every time. I also never get sick accept for my genetic Bipolar and Thyroid disorders. My wife also thrives on a vegan diet and so do the few friends I have that are Vegan.
In relation to insecticides, that is a curly one. Plants can produce much larger phytotoxins in defence of insect infestation, these hytotoxins are sometimes just as dangerous as insecticide and can not be washed off as they are in the fruit. This is one positive argument in favour of monsanto's insecticide resistant crops. thats said I don't trust monsanto and generally avoid GM. One must scientific about these things but as if you think nature is better than science go eat some pyrethrum!!!!!....lol
As I never get sick I rarely need antibiotics, but I also have the benefit of not having it added to my food supply like non vegans...!!!!
Mark F, you give us a list of injustices, and tell us the world isn't fair. Does this mean that we, individually, should make no effort to be fair? Vegan Ape is talking about human behavior - our own actions. I take control of my actions, not yours, and not the world. But, progressive people in each generation work together for an idea of justice that includes a wider range of beneficiaries. Ending slavery gathered blacks into the fold, Woman's suffrage, women, and veganism brings the other animals into the group of those worthy of justice and fairness.