Eco-Logical: A Group for Environmentalists


Eco-Logical: A Group for Environmentalists

Eco-Logical is a group for anyone who cares about clean air, drinkable water, a sustainable economy, and environmental justice.

Location: The Irreplaceable Earth
Members: 339
Latest Activity: 3 hours ago

Welcome to Eco-Logical: A Group for Environmentalists


Note: Sylvain Duford, the group's creator, has left A|N. I am acting as moderator of the group in his place. Please contact me if you have any questions. - Dallas the Phallus.

Discussion Forum

Permafrost Speeds Ocean Acidification

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner 3 hours ago. 0 Replies

On the IPCC 1.5ºC Special Report

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner Dec 6. 6 Replies

Anthropocene Complexity

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Tom Sarbeck Dec 2. 11 Replies

Extinction Rebellion Group and Climate Crisis Coming Sooner

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner Nov 2. 3 Replies

2018 Arctic Drama

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner Oct 28. 14 Replies

Glimpse Our Future World

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner Oct 27. 0 Replies

Even 2°C Rise Could Tip To Hothouse Earth

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner Oct 5. 0 Replies

Jet Stream and AMOC to disappear

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Grinning Cat Oct 2. 1 Reply

Methane, more scary than we thought

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner Sep 25. 72 Replies

Step Changes in Your Future

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner Sep 18. 61 Replies

Another Positive Feedback we'd missed

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Joan Denoo Sep 15. 28 Replies

Mega-Floods Nonlinear Ramp-up

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner Sep 6. 0 Replies

Disruptive Ecosystem Change Has Begun

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner Aug 31. 4 Replies

2 degrees warming in 10 to 15 years

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner Aug 3. 3 Replies

Instead of 82°, what if today's high had been 141°F

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner Aug 2. 7 Replies

Atlantic Tipping Point in View

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Plinius Jul 23. 2 Replies

Facing Reality is harder than it used to be

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Grinning Cat Mar 14. 5 Replies

Amazon Rain Forest Oscillation

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner Feb 26. 1 Reply

Climate Denial Crock of the Week

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Comment Wall


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Comment by Chris on March 16, 2012 at 9:32pm

With computing and technology at its current level gasoline tax could be levied depending on the mpg and pollution output of the car being filled. This could be done with a camera that records the license plate to identify which kind of vehicle it is then when it's a Humve the taxes could be higher than if it were say a Prius. 

Comment by TNT666 on March 16, 2012 at 4:58pm

Guy, you missed my point... the problems I stated ARE the ones I'm actively working on at the present time. I make bloody sure I don't aid the miscreants of our world in keeping humanity down, that's why I do not promote individual guilt trips (individual actions which do not significantly help the planet), I promote changing the system. I WAS the individual purist environmentalist (guilt-tripper) for 2-1/2 decades, I grew out of it once I understood where the problem really lays, after watching every little battle we'd win be lost a few years later, as soon as we turned our backs. If you had known me in my 20s-30s, you could have found not a single environmental flaw in my day to day behaviour, and I encouraged (through example) many others along that path... but meanwhile, more greedy social climbers were doing the exact opposite and destroying life at the systemic levels in unprecedented levels. Acting individually has been going on for several decades, it's not a new idea. The environmental movement needs to change its priorities.

The problem with winning small battles is that the rich greedies of the world pretend to be beaten, and then patiently wait 2-3-5 years, until the whatever small campaign we're doing is out of the media picture, then, behind closed doors, in secrecy, they go ahead and reverse whatever small win we had achieved. In the end, us little Davids can win any number of battles, but without cutting off Goliath's head, Goliath just keep regenerating, and growing.

Another error the environmental movement has suffered from in the past 3 decades is focusing on: "lets do it for our children". The problem with this mantra is that it delays all action to the future, and further, and further, with each generation, and nothing ever gets done. It's time we said fuck the children, let's do this now, FOR US.

Comment by Chris on March 16, 2012 at 4:43pm

I like the idea about stopping breeding. I've been suggesting that 1st children should be a tax deduction, the second should not have a tax benefit and all consequential children should be a tax liability - with a grandfather clause for existing children. For some reason no one likes that idea.

The idea for integrating business and housing is great too. That's the way cities were built before the automobile. On the east coast and in metropolises there are grocery stores within easy walking distance. City planning is horrible and they are just beginning to rethink city planning.

Campaign refinance has to change so big donations from corporations don't bid for politicians. 

The reason OWS hasn't come up with a comprehensive list is because there are so many things that are wrong that it would be easier to say what's right. 

You have a good list TN666.

Comment by Guy on March 16, 2012 at 9:16am

I know the problems. I can give you the list that's a mile long. I understand how to fix them if I had unlimited resources and could be world dictator... I do not have unlimited resources and I am not dictator of the world. If you have the resources and are world dictator whats keeping you?

Sitting back and restating the problems to the choir is what keeps things from getting done. It provides no solutions to the problem. You cant move a mountain by yelling at it. You need a shovel and if you can get 10,000 shovels it moves much faster.  How about starting an ad campaign? To Boycott items with excessive packaging. 

If you looked at the occupy movement you saw the corporations start to shake a little they explained it off as a bunch of nuts because they had no plan, little direction, and tried to point out too many things and very large bites. If you could rally that number of people with a good plan and a few targeted points. You have a better chance of getting your point across to the general public and that's how you get more shovels to work with you. You also need to make it easy for the first bites to go down for the general public or they will never take them.

Atheist of all people should understand how people react to large change. Faither leaders understand how to move people slowly and painlessly. Look where they take them all the way to drinking the Koolaid and killing their own children... They are moving nations. 40 years ago faithers had very little power look at them now.

I am not thinking small I am thinking very large. I see the internet as a very powerful tool. A few people with the proper message can get the masses to move mountains. The catch is the masses need to consume your message. Threatening to turn their world upside down over night and create huge uncertainty turns them off and you will never be heard.

Comment by TNT666 on March 16, 2012 at 3:34am

Small bites... is exactly the reason nothing ever gets fixed on this planet. Corporate goons are not taking small bites, governments are not acting on small bites. Both of them have guilt tripped citizens into staying small. Them forcing you to think small is THEIR victory.

Comment by TNT666 on March 16, 2012 at 3:32am

Stop breeding and family subsidies in order to put an end to the growth of the human population. Change the orientation of budgets from growth to sustainability. Remove corporate "limited responsibility" and/or personhood (where exists). End greedy corporate practices by removing the drive for greed, limitless CEO profits, and create a system where staff have at the most a 10x order of salary/benefit difference. Change our constitutions and make clean air, clean water, healthy soil fundamental rights that no corporate greed may step on. Reinstate train merchandise transportation... and for individual human transportation, REvalue NON-motorised transportation and ensure all mid-distance travelpublic and longer has public transit, and cut ALL subsidies to pollution causing transportation. Dezone all of suburbia from residential to business-residential (not industrial)(remove the deed for senseless transportation like getting to arts/culture/sport/school all humans functions other than industrial must be integrated). The educational system must return to education, while job training should return to the work world (how can humans live healthy if we're all busy getting into massive debt in order to get jobs that may or may not happen, it's not be the role of education to train for jobs, taxpayers should not pay job training). Reform elections so that each candidate is allowed only a specific/standard/reasonable amount of electoral money and eliminate the wasteful practice of spending years tramping around our societies in order to occupy high political positions. Our political leader should be our spokespersons, not deciders, and as I once read... the very person that desires political celebrity is the one who should not have the job. Leaders should be nominated randomly throughout the population, for a short term. Remove corporate reps from government committees and panels. The only purpose of a corporation is its own profit and their needs should not dictate any of our political policies.

The problems with the environment are not the consequence of individual people, they are the result of SYSTEMIC policies and the size of humanity.

As for the comment about war not being possible... meh... after decades of calling myself a pacifist, I have come to realise that this is not possible. The leaders of our society ARE waging on humanity and the environment, and by not doing anything, we're simply accepting to be their pawns.

Comment by Chris on March 16, 2012 at 1:23am

A good first step in changing from consumption to sustainability would be to tax polluters. Maybe a tax should be placed on non-biodegradable packaging too. I read that every weekend more oil is dripped on the ground while mowing the lawn than was spilled by the Exxon Valdez tanker spill. The town I live in has a program to entice people to get rid of their lawns. I doesn't seem to work very well as most houses have lawns. Why aren't there three trees on every household subdivision lot. That would reduce greenhouse gas.

I read in several sources that gasoline is subsidized through military action among other ways and if that was removed gasoline would cost $10/gallon. It would cost $12/gallon if human health costs were factored in. As it is everyone shares in this cost for the convenience of private transportation. If people had to pay the real cost of gasoline they would be more apt to take public transportation.

I think everyone should recycle, but the elimination of the original package should come first. Plastic water bottles have to be the most wasteful consumer product ever developed and marketed.

A 100% biodegradable container that behaves like plastic that is made out of corn starch is available. Make the use of that mandatory. 

Why are there so many different kinds of power supplies? Mandating    size requirements would eliminate e-waste.

Comment by Guy on March 16, 2012 at 12:14am

As I said before. Do you have a method of getting from a unsustainable capitalist economy to another economic structure? This is a really BIG project. There are a few basic questions that need to be asked. What other economy would you propose? How do you get from here to there? War and mass destruction is a non answer. I came here looking for exciting solutions. I see where people want to fix it by changing the economy. How do you do that? Remember this is just not our countries this is the entire world we are talking about. There are other economic structures out there. Who's would you use and why? Then how do you get there?

Something I learned long ago was you need a plan and that plan requires small bites to eat the entire pie. If you take too large of a bite you sometimes make a mess. One of my bites is to reduce my consumption and recycle. Not too hard to swallow. It also makes it easier to move other people that direction when they see it can be done by other people. The occupy movement in some ways showed that but there was no end game and no plan. Other people were left wondering what were they doing and the media did a poor job explaining what the purpose was. The occupy movement did a poor job explaining what they were doing.

What type of a plan could be proposed to clean up the plastic in the ocean? Remember small bites working in the world we currently live in. Changing it is a really large bite more than I can handle. Doing nothing is as bad as the people who are making the mess. I am taking a small bite by asking these questions. If we all answer these questions we have started to eat the pie. 

I am just looking for ideas on next steps.

Comment by Chris on March 15, 2012 at 3:07am

I think fundamental economic change is needed before environmental damage will stop and repair of earths systems will begin. With continual population growth even at slowed consumption rates environmental damage will continue. Until economies are based on sustainability instead of growth attempts at conservation have no significance - all it does is slow down the inevitable collapse of the major environmental systems leading to climatic catastrophe. Recycling may make individuals feel good, but it doesn't make a dent in the overall amount of stuff being used and thrown away, or washed to sea. Even if humans stopped fishing the oceans would die because of the rising pollution levels. Sea life will starve to death with bellies full of plastic. In case that's not enough Ocean acidity is higher than it's been in 300 million years because of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. That carbon is caused by humans.

Comment by Guy on March 15, 2012 at 2:09am

I agree with the profound changes. If you have the capabilities to create those changes congratulations. Get busy. I have been working on a technology that will take many delivery vehicles off the road. By delivering medical film via the internet. The fax, email and electronic billing has almost put the post office out of business. If we could get advertising agencies to stop mailing trash to people and have a method for the poorer people to pay their bills electronically that would just about put the post office out of business. Removing a whole fleet of vehicles off the road. The banks no longer move truck loads of checks from one bank to another. They scan the checks and electronically send them to the other banks. Again removing a fairly large fleet from the road. Things are happening. I am not delusional and think its because the bankers want to be green. At least not that kind of green. They do it because its cheaper.

Google is replacing a huge number of computers with new low energy computers they use less than 1/4 the power of the old systems. Green or profit margin. In Google's case I think a little of both or at least thats what I hope.

If you don't have the capability to move mountains to completely change things over night you should do your part no matter how little that is. If everyone was to  save 10% of their energy usage across 300 million people in the US that would be huge. I was able to reduce my usage by 50%. Oh and for the corporations. Well if I dont buy as much they don't waste as much of their resources. My electric car gave a 1985 Fiero a second life. Therefore reducing its carbon foot print.

I have worked in the medical field for years in the past there was huge amounts of garbage because everything needed to be sterile. Now hospitals recycle almost 80% of their waste. Our economy is not based on waste. It is based on profit. Waste is becoming expensive and cutting into the profit margin. Companies are recycling more than ever. Still not good enough but much more than they did 30 years ago.

I know capitalism is not sustainable. To expect economic growth year after year when the population growth is flat or reducing is plain stupid. The only way you can expect it is to get people they need more and or manufacture stuff where it breaks. Even then economic growth will hit a peak and flatten out. Uncontrolled capitalism will eventually consume itself. We can slow it down by consuming less. Hopefully we will be rational beings and put people in power that will understand what is truly needed. I have very little hope for the US and the republican party. They want to gut all regulations that slow the money making. I can only hope for the democrats. At least they are not going to gut anything just keep status quo and changes will happen a little more slowly. Although its not just the US its China, Canada, Europe... The rest of the world that needs to change as well. 

I have looked into an interesting project called the Venus project. I like the concept it turns our economy on its head and moves towards a resource based economy. Dumps capitalism completely. I have two issues with it... How do we get from here to there and how do we deal with humans.

Until we can achieve utopia we all need to do our part. It does have an effect on the big picture. There are technologies that can be developed. To help our environment we need to get moving and convince people they are worth while. Sitting back and telling the governments we need change will not work unless it gets them elected you just look like the fringe and get ignored. I know of over 6000 vehicles that have gotten a second life and have greatly reduced their carbon foot print. 

Without practical solutions nothing gets done. The end goal is to change the world one person at a time. It is a changing for the better are you part of that change or part of the problem?


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