I'm a little perplexed right now. Ya see, I know a few vets who served in Vietnam. One was finally able to put it past him about 8 years ago when a former service buddy had him do a sweat lodge on Indian reservation. I've known others who were affected by Agent Orange. One was finally given VA disability because as they told him..."you are still alive..."

I was reading an article about Max Cleland. He was a senator from Georgia until 2002. He lost the election to a Republican Saxby Chambliss. During the election Chambliss adds suggested that Cleland was in bed with the terrorists. What that stemmed from was that Cleland thought the Patriot Act went just too far.
Cleland is disabled.
He lost both legs and an arm due to a grenade. He had gotten off a Huey, saw the grenade, bent down to pick it up when it went off. He barely lived.
Under Jimmy Carter he was the head of the Veterans Administration. He did a lot of good. There were a lot of horror stories about the VA back then. They were true. I won’t go into them here. But just imagine a Sgt Major paralyzed from the neck down. He cannot feed himself. He can’t do anything.
Now imagine a VA worker bring him a tray of food, setting it down and walking out. Later she comes back. States that she see’s he hasn’t touched any of it. He replies that he can’t he’s paralyzed from the neck down. She touches it. She comments that it’s gone cold. Then she makes a snide remark about him not wanting then fine… Takes the tray and walks out.
The man was thin as a rail. He was slowly starving to death. Cleland help stop that and other things. The VA got better.
Reading the posting from the “Right Wing” nuts would make any veteran angry. They said he was drunk when he picked up the grenade. The man had just stepped off a Huey. They called him a cry baby. He was suffering from PTSD and didn’t know it until he sought help.
It tore him up that innocent soldiers, men and women were being injured, disabled and killed by the out and out lies of Bush, Chaney, Rove, Rumsfeld, and others who had not served in Vietnam.
And the people attacked Cleland. I know that politics is dirty. Very dirty. I’ve seen it first hand.
But you have people going after the man just for the sport of it.
Its like they smell blood and attack.
And they don’t limit it to Democrats.
The same people went after John McCain in the 2000 Republican Party primary. McCain gets “angry…”
Personally, if I was stuck in a POW camp where my fellow prisoners were tortured, beaten, isolated, and worse, while others like Bush, Rove, old Rush, Saxby Chambliss got deferments (Saxby got 5), I’d be damn angry too.
I’m surprised these people don’t hang out at the VA and wait for disabled vets to come by so they can spit on them.
This is one reason I’ve been for a draft since 2001. Drag these right wing nut cases into the military screaming and kicking. Then ship their gung ho asses to the war zone.
I’m sure their first morning in the military you’d find them crying like a baby because the drill sergeant was having them make their own bed.

So what's your take on this?

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Replies to This Discussion

Unfortunately, a draft would have exclusions, and the wealthy right (and left) would be exempt. As with the Vietnam War, it would be fought by the under-privileged class. I'm not for the draft as much as I'm for a clear mission. When I was in the service, it was the "Soviet threat". We knew exactly what we were supposed to do and who our enemy was. Anytime you try to use the military for a police action, you're going to run into trouble. This include using the military as Federal police (i.e. the drug "war", etc.) We should be using some other means in Afghanistan. I actually don't know what would be best but there are plenty of knowledgeable people who do. Just my opinion.
If you re-institute the draft then the quality of new soldiers will go down even further. The people you want to see get drafted would never serve a day, or they would get cushy assignments. Now, perhaps the way around that is to make it obligatory for those wanting to serve in public office.
People seem to look at the draft with, for lack of a better, "fear?"
People, we couldn't have won WWII without a draft.
Now, granted, that was the last time the US actually declared war.
That's a big difference.
In fact, I'm currently living in Congressmen (R) Ron Paul's district. I went to a dinner a couple of years back where he spoke as part of the fund raiser.
He said that he opposed the Iraq mission not based on MORAL grounds, nor that IRAQ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9-11, but rather that it was UN-CONSTITUTIONAL.
He was then told by the Republican Party that if he valued his political career he need to shut up.
Later on they came to him and told him that if the Iraq mission went tits up, then they'd just blame it on Bush.
Now, I don't' know about you, but I was under the impression that our Congressional Representatives REPRESENTED THE PEOPLE OF THEIR DISTRICT NOT THE INTERESTS OF THE PARTY THEY ARE IN.
But that's just me. I may be wrong....
Now its said that the quality of people you bring into the military are people who don't want to be there and are of lessor quality.
Well, the other side of that coin is that you do bring in people of a higher quality also, and of a middle quality also. People don't want to be there? I'm sorry, but there are people who hate their jobs, hate their bosses, hate their lives, hate their marriages, hate their spouses, hate their children, parents, the government, the Democrats, the Republicans and so on.
But if we go to war, and I mean a war with an enemy that has an army, say like China, or Russia, we're gonna need soldier. There won't be enough "Security Personnel" like in Iraq with companies like Blackwater, Triple Canopy, or others.
When I'm sitting at a table with a clown who was old enough to serve during Vietnam and got his ass a deferment, who says, "Well, at least they volunteered" it only shows that they don't care how long or how many get wounded, disabled or actually die.
The point is, THEY HAVE NOTHING AT STATE. They have nothing INVESTED. So you have a "Stay as long as you want" attitude. No one is "put upon" so no one cares. And if no one cares......
Then the tractor pull or football game take priority. Not completing the mission or goal or to have a time table when to withdraw.
It's kind of like being in a non-profit volunteer organization. You need to recruit members, but the members you have don't want to work a booth, or a show or invite people to come to meetings or events. They want the work to be done, but well, they don't want to put any effort into it.
It's like someone who isn't self employed who sees things differently then a business owner. Like the former ENRON employees. The checks are good. The lights are on. The toilet flushes and there's toilet paper. There's office supplies. They can get on the internet. They might get employee discounts.
Then one day, it's all GONE. They find themselves sitting on the curb with their from their desk in a cardboard box looking around saying, "What happened?"
Someone has to make sure there's money in the bank. And just because the company has "INC" after it's name doesn't mean it's a bottomless pit of money.
Someone has to make sure the lights are on. And no the Office Supply Fairy doesn't bring office supplies in the middle of the night while people are asleep.
Would there have to be changes in how a draft is run? Of course. In fact, funny thing, right after 9-ll Congress passed certain bills to make sure people couldn't run off to Canada to avoid military service. How odd? Wonder what they were thinking?
But things have also changed since the time of Vietnam. Certain things like being able to "Chapter" people out came into being. Could those be abuse? Sure. Anything can be. But being aware of the ability to abuse such a thing can also be used to stop the abuse from happening.
I'd do away with college deferments. An exception? Sure. If they had less then two semesters to graduate I'd let them finish. If they were in graduate school? Well, if they had less then two semesters, let the same thing apply. If they flunk, too bad. You had you chance. You can try later after your time in the service.
Medical school? If you're in your last year you can finish. Then into the service with you and into the Medical Corps. When you pass the Boards, you can be a military doctor. Until that time, you're a physician's assitant. I've always gotten better treatment by a PA, odd thing.
Lawyer? You're in your last year? You can finish. Then in you go. Oh, and you can become a JAG officer when you pass the bar.
Now some of you might say that's kinda suckie but hey, it's not like lawyers are an endangered species. Back in the 1980's the US Army started to bring in lawyers and doctors as 0-2's since there were so many of them. So until you pass you bar or your boards... here ya stripes.
Sorry I don't mean to get long winded on this subject. Just looking over the past 8 years and seeing how the military has been ground down, and knowing how hard it was to rebuild the military after Vietnam, I find it just frustrating.
Besides, not everyone is going to be infantry. You still need service support people. But the key thing is, with a draft, the politicians won't be so willing to pull these stunts. Why? Because those who get drafted will vote. And if their elected officials don't then the draftees will remember that, as will their families comes election day.
Excellent points Rick, thanks for pointing out my oversight. I was focusing on the lower side of the scale. You are absolutely right, we'd also get some from the other side of the spectrum. I also liked the different scenarios to handle the deferments.
This might....just might....be a bit .... extreme....sorry I didn't reply earlier.....but on the topic of deferments...
Depending upon the person for the deferment....public castration.

Now I know you're thinking that..."dude..chill out..." but... look at all those sans balls who sent all those "Joes" off to Iraq like Wolfowitz, Scooter Libby...Georige Bush...Mr. Chaney...
I would list Condi Rice, but hell that women does have some "balls"...

Since they got deferments because they were "too good" or "too special" to serve, they didn't have any balls. So, they wouldn't miss them and we'd have documented government records showing that they didn't have any balls....

But on a serious note....there were those who honestly with all their heart and mind did not believe in what was going on in Vietnam. Some actually left the country and never returned. it just bothers me that I know people who did serve and one was my cousin.
I remember back in the summer of 1968 him and my uncle having nightly talks about the War.
My uncle was a WWII vet and worked for the US Government.
Like a lot of people it was expected of them. When their government called, they needed to step up and answer the call.
Plain and simple.
But others, who as I say, didn't want to be "inconvenienced" or put upon by military service because well, it wasn't in their "plan" or career schedule, they can kiss my ass. And any and every veterans ass.
And that's how I feel about the mission to Iran and Afghanistan. I and others truly expected there to be a draft. Our country was attacked. We needed to respond accordingly.
But knowing that Iraq had nothing to do with the events of 9-11 there was no reason to attack, invade and occupy the place.
Had we had instituted a draft. Even a short draft. The Bush administration would have never attempted to pull off the lies they did about WMD's. The people who were drafted, and their families would have never stood for it.
At least that's how I perceive it would have happened.
I would love a Utah only draft. Utah is one of, if not the number one, pro-war, hawkish states in the nation but also has the lowest enlistment rate. Put your money where your mouth is, Mormons!
OH, there are a tone of them here in Texas. Of course, these are also the ones who never said a word while the National Debt was being doubled by Bush and Company. Now the time is coming to pay for all that spending and they're crying like a baby.
Sorry kiddies...no such thing as a free meal.
It's like how I feel about having an national health plan.
If we can spend money overseas in sand pits and such, then it's time we took that money and instead of throwing it away, invest it in the American People.
Let's put them first.

Over the years, I've seen the US have a draft and not have a draft. I've seen it where you had to sign up for the draft and when you didn't. I'm of that age group who didn't have to sign up for the draft.
Of course, I ended up in the military anyway.
As I mentioned to one of my NCO's who served in fun sunny Vietnam and who had been drafted..."I avoided signing up for the draft...and here I am...." He just rolled his eyes, shook his head and told me to, "Take out the damn trash...."
Anyway....I will get to my point.
There are times the military does not meet it's recruiting goal.
This happened the last time that I know in Fiscal Year 1997. Even the USMC didn't meet its numbers.
When this happens, I feel we need to have a draft for that year.
You only draft the number you need.
Take that number, average it out amount the states and territories of the US.
If there is an odd number, then do a lottery where one of the states or territories will have to bring in an extra person. Then take that state or territory off the list for the next time until all have given up the extra person.
This is for all the Services, Reserves, and National Guard. All done by pick of the draw.
No exceptions.
Send them all to Basic or Boot camp.
At the end of Basic or Boot off this option to those who have been picked for the Reserves or Guard: Offer them Active duty.
There will be those who will like what they have tasted with the military and take it. For those who take it, fill those slots with those who have been designated for Active duty who have a say a family conflict.
What I mean by that, their parents are dead and they are the oldest child and are responsible for the younger children.
Those that do, let them serve in the Reserves or National Guard.
But, it cannot be where Daddy or Mommy or Grandpa or the Mrs' or they have some pull.
They have to have a documented record where it would cause an undo harm.
Since we are at Peace, it should be a problem.
If we have to go to war, well, then it goes with the job.

Okay...in a perfect world....but what do you think about this idea?
Larry...please....don't hold back..... ; )

I'm originally from Houston. And I knew Bush Jr. got into the local air guard unit because it happened to be in daddy's congressional district.
Now, Jr. was engaged to some blond the fall semester of his final year in college. Seems that if you were married you did not get drafted.
Well, when daddy was able to get Jr. in the air national guard, he dumped blondie
So much for the sanctity of marriage...
He went to basic.
He attended one drill.
Then got handed his gold bar and him's was an ossifer....
The bright side of all this is, just think how many American lives were saved by him NOT going to Vietnam....
I think he made up for that during his presidency.
I think you're looking at it from all the wrong points and places.
First, you're forgetting the "thinning of the heard" mentality. These frothing at the mouth wingnuts would make GREAT SHOCK TROOPS! They get sent in first.
Kinda like how the Russian Army cleared mine fields in WWII. They'd send in the "Shock" troops or actually Penal Battalions or units.
They'd run through the mine field rather then attacking the machine gun nests located between the mine fields.
They understood that you were going to loose the same number of troops if you attack the machine gun position as you would sending them through the mine field. The bonus is that since you're gonna loose the troops anyway, they might was well be used to clear the mine field. Then the regular troops can just come through the cleared mine field.
Second, they are more then willing to die for "God and Country." Okay, so the guys on the other side are willing to die for God also. It's a match made in heaven.
They both know that if they kill the other they will get into "Heaven" and if they died trying to kill the other guy then they will still get into heaven.
Third...(You'' love this..)
Faux News will be cheering them on to enlist.

Of course, those at Faux would never ever themselves go join up. I mean, look how many did right after 9-11 and since. They're packing the place, right? So by their cheering them on to enlist, the needed quotas will be met. Think of how much pressure will be taken off the recruiters and their chain of command. Forth, if and when they are killed, their families, friends, religious leaders, and elected officials who so loving appreciate the taste of the TV evangelist preachers penises in their mouths can't complain because, as we've heard them say in the past few years, "....but they volunteered..."
and Fifth, they'd be doing "God's work" on Earth....

So in short, we thin the heard (hopefully before they procreate), use them to take out the other religious crazies on the other side, use Faux News to our advantage (and with the deaths of their viewers shrink their market share thereby reducing their sponsors), help the recruiters meet their goals and take pressure off their chain of command, stop the far rights complaining since their kids, spouses, family, what have you die doing "God's work."

It's really a win win situation. Of course, the down side is that many of them just might all of the sudden decide that they are "gay" and can't serve. My response to that is, create "Rainbow" units. These would be units for people that declare themselves "Gay" in order to get out of a draft. This includes if they show up to the MEPS Station in drag.




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