Free-Will DNE

Simply Put Free Will Does Not Exist. This Group is for anyone who believes free will is an even greater mass delusion than God. Those who uphold Naturalism in its purest form. And anyone else who has questions about this topic.

Members: 82
Latest Activity: May 12

Discussion Forum

Sam Harris: The Illusion of Free Will

Started by Jedi Wanderer. Last reply by Joan Denoo May 12. 2 Replies

Experimental Philosophy

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Jedi Wanderer Dec 22, 2011. 5 Replies

Is free will really a supernatural concept?

Started by Howard S. Dunn. Last reply by Tonya Wynn Apr 6, 2011. 8 Replies

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Comment by Fabio on September 5, 2008 at 5:27pm
Whoah, careful there, you're treading on unsteady ground. As far as my humble opinion goes, an "ethereal mind" has never even been proven to exist in the first place. If we consider hard evidence, thoughts are likely to be an epiphenomenon of matter and, as everything that happens in the physical world we live in, they are physical. The fact that they don't have a clear-cut shape we can identify and their being extremely elusive does not diminish their physicality and, above all, their power to act upon the physical world beyond our own bodily confines. Might be uncomfortable to think of them as physical entities, but there is hardly any reason to dismiss thoughts as things that only exist in our heads. They are born in our brains, they live in our brains and often die in our brains. Yet they often leave our brains, colonise others, reproduce and mutate just like purely biological living organisms. Yes, you get it, I kinda find memetics interesting.
Comment by Zerosmelt on September 5, 2008 at 12:48pm
If you are willing to deny that thoughts are actions then yes. But i suggest you ask yourself why you are denying that thoughts are actions. Do you have any reason to other than a desire?
I could have used the word event instead of action.
Thoughts are actions, they occur. "Thought" is a verb, it is an action no matter what way you slice the cake. When you think you are doing an action; so yes they are actions, they are events. To deny that they are actions is unsubstantiated. They cause other actions to occur but they are also actions themselves
Comment by Zerosmelt on September 5, 2008 at 11:06am
Thanks for your thoughts Jim I actually agree with many things you say. However you should realize that I named this group "Free Will Does Not Exist" and not "Determinists" for a reason. As you stated Hard Determinism at the nano scale has been soundly refuted by quantum physics. (even though everything still obeys deterministic probability waves) Yet that doesn't mean free will exists. You don't have to be a determinist to deny free will.

The simple argument against free will goes as follows:

1. All thoughts are actions.
2. Every action either has a cause or it doesn't.
3. If an action is caused it doesn't occur according to free will.
4. If an action has no cause it occurs by chance.
5. Therefore Free Will DNE.

The concept of free will really has no meaning. A distinction should be made between free will and freedom. Free will imply contra causal action, freedom does not. I believe everything happens either by chance or deterministic causation. Lightening is a great example of this as it is largely governed by quantum mechanics.
Comment by Fabio on September 5, 2008 at 8:05am
Interesting topic. To all those who complain that "blaming" genetics for our actions is akin to exculpating a criminal because he was allegedly acting under the influence of his genes I usually respond that we *are* our genes and that distancing ourselves from them is a delusion. Of course, this conviction still conflicts, at times, with my quite humanistic upbringing and ongoing education, but I nevertheless try to hold true to it.
Comment by TJMorgan on September 5, 2008 at 7:46am
"free will is an even greater mass delusion than God" - took the words right out of my mouth.
Comment by Zerosmelt on September 4, 2008 at 9:26pm
I'm not necessarily a determinist, but a belief in the lack of free will is central to my way of seeing the world. I probably wouldn't be an atheist if I hadn't established this as a foundation.

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