Godless in the garden


Godless in the garden

Welcome to gardeners, growers of veggies, fruits, flowers, and trees!  


Welcome  backyard hen enthusiasts, worm farmers, beekeepers & composters!

Location: Planet Earth
Members: 176
Latest Activity: yesterday

Welcome to Eden!

If you like to dig in the dirt, plant & prune, grow food & flowers, or sit and watch as someone else does your landscaping, you'll find something here to discuss!

Selected topics, in sort of alphabetical order:
Aging.  Gardening with an older body.
bees.  insectary.  insectsbee gardening. Beneficial insects.  insects drive evolution

Compost.  herecontaminated compost.

Backyard Chickens here. here. here. here.

Edible yard.  here  urban farmfront yards.
Growing Fruits


Fragrance and Scenthere.
Fruit growing.  in a small space, by backyard orchard culture.
Frugal gardening.  labels.

Gardening for future generations.  also permaculture, trees, historic varieties, soil

Hegelkultur here, here, here

Heritage and historic varieties.   heresources

locally grown plants to prevent blight transmission here.

Moon Phase Widget here. Moon phase topic here.

PeppersHot peppers.

Permaculture MollisonFalk  Liu, Joan's IntroTransformation in 90 days, Perm Principles at work. Food forest, Holzer

Potatoes.  here.

Rooftop gardening.  here

Seed starting. starting spring crops.

Scientific Gardening.   The Informed Gardener.  The truth about garden remedies.

Soil and soil building - healthy soil microbes, mycelium, dirt is everything, soil analysissoil pH.


Tomatoes.  Myths and truths

Trees.  Tree tunnels.  Ancient tree planting. Plant commemorative trees

Comment Wall


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Comment by Joan Denoo on November 18, 2013 at 2:15am

How interesting. I suppose there are many relics in the muds of the Netherlands, with all the armies crisscrossing your nation over the centuries. 

I ran across 

In a 37.5 meters deep well in the Oosterschelde, researchers find remains of animals from the Early Pleistoceneabout 1.9 million years ago. On 1 September 2012, a fossil of a canine was fished up. This makes it the oldest dog ever found in the Netherlands.

The primeval landscape of the Oosterschelde 1.9 million years ago was a subtropical forest with swamps, rivers and open grazing areas.Mammothsmastodonsrhinocerosdeer and zebra-like ungulates lived there. This canine is, after the saber-toothed tiger, and the hyena the third carnivore now known from that era.

The fossil dog’s jaw is now on show in Naturalis museum.

Three tough mammals — a huge “bear dog” and two saber-toothed cats — were among Europe’s top predators 9 million years ago, according to a new study.
So you have some pretty interesting ancient fossil history in the Netherlands. 

Comment by Plinius on November 18, 2013 at 12:28am

Thanks for the info, Joan! A good way to make unseen country come alive in the mind!

Here in the mud is not very much to be found: some dolmens and bog bodies, and some Roman leftovers, most visible in old place names and in the distances between their settlements - a days march. And North Sea fishers sometimes find bones and teeth from woolly mammoths in their nets.

Comment by Joan Denoo on November 17, 2013 at 5:58pm

Yes, we do have fossils of horses in the NW. 

Also a Mammoth fossil was found near Rosalia, WA, south of Spokane, in 1872; it is on display at Fields Museum in Chicago.

50 miles south of Spokane there was a mastodon found and we know that extinction occurred during the Homo sapiens migration into the Americas during the last Ice Age.

Mastodon fossils, Washington state


Mammoths became extinct 10,000 years ago; fossilized remains of the Columbian mammoth were found on the Olympic Peninsula. 

Glacial Lake Missoula and the Ice Age Floods


Mammoth from an ancestral species of north African mammoth (M. africanavus) disappeared about 3 or 4 million years ago. Descendants of these mammoths moved north and eventually covered most of Eurasia (these were M. meridionalis, the “southern mammoths").

Comment by Joan Denoo on November 17, 2013 at 5:52pm

Prehistoric extinctions (beginning of the Holocene to 1500 AD)


(Holocene began 10,000 years ago at the end of the Pleistocene)

American Cheetahs, American Lion, American Mastodon, American Mountain Deer,

Giant hutia (110 and 440 lb).


Columbian Mammoth

Dire Wolf

Giant Beaver,

Harlan’s Muskox,

Harrington’s Mountain Goat,

armadillos or ‘Holmesina septentrionalis’ ,

North American Jaguar,

Saber-tooth cat,

Scott’s horse “Equus scotti’

Short-faced bear,



Stilt-legged Llama,

Stout-legged Llama,

polar bear ‘Ursus maritimus tyrannus’

Western Horse ‘Equus occidentalis,

Woolly Mammoth 

Comment by Joan Denoo on November 17, 2013 at 5:51pm

List of North American animals extinct in the Holocene

Prehistoric extinctions (beginning of the Holocene to 1500 AD)

Notice the extinctions began about 12,000 years ago and the end of the Pleistocene was about 12,000 years ago. 

"About 12,000 years ago, the valleys of western Montana lay beneath a lake nearly 2,000 feet deep. Glacial Lake Missoula formed as the Cordilleran Ice Sheet dammed the Clark Fork River just as it entered Idaho. The rising water behind the glacial dam weakened it until water burst through in a catastrophic flood that raced across Idaho, Oregon, and Washington toward the Pacific Ocean. Thundering waves and chunks of ice tore away soils and mountainsides, deposited giant ripple marks, created the scablands of eastern Washington and carved the Columbia River Gorge. Over the course of centuries, Glacial Lake Missoula filled and emptied in repeated cycles, leaving its story embedded in the land."

Spokane to the coast near Portland was profoundly impacted by these floods. Rocks, soils, huge chunks of glacier wiped away any trace of Pleistocene and early Holocene evidence of life. The flood cut to and through the bedrock. 

Comment by Joan Denoo on November 17, 2013 at 4:43pm
Randall, You are so wise to have gathered "persimmon trees and seeds came from a tree my grandmother planted 90 years ago". Real treasures. I hope your family realizes what a richness you have saved. The nice thing about plants, sharing does not deplete the giver and renews the receiver!
Comment by Joan Denoo on November 17, 2013 at 4:14pm
I ran across this diary while looking for fossil horses:
"Plowing Up History!

"One year as the Donahoes were plowing their land near where the Steptoe Battlefield site, they plowed up a cannon ball and some old guns, most of which had deteriorated. That’s not all that was plowed up. In 1890 to 1900 there were hills covered with flowers and millions of prairie chickens; however when the farmers plowed up the flowers, they destroyed bird nests. There were thousands of other birds like blackbirds, bob-whites, quails and lots of squirrels. There were also many mink, muskrats and fish until the Smith brothers put in a dam at Pine City. After all the plowing, Leo wrote: "Now there is nothing but wheat."
"A History of the Rosalia Area
Comment by Daniel W on November 17, 2013 at 8:20am
Randall, it's fantastic to have a family heirloom fruit tree!

There are some named Varieties of American persimmon - Meader and Golden among others. One of my saplings is supposedly a hybrid Asian/American that is self-fruitful, the other is an Asian persimmon, also supposedly self fruitful. We'll see if I ever get fruit from them. I think the hardest stage us getting them established the first year. We made it through that much!

To have fruit trees you grew from seed - also fantastic! I have some seedling wild plums, a european plum seedling, snd a peach. Whether I will see fuit from those is iffy.
Comment by Randall Smith on November 17, 2013 at 7:49am

Joan: How's my body holding up? Legs!!  Seriously, my back is a little sore this morning, but overall, I'm in great shape. I'm an exercise nut, so that helps.

Daniel: The persimmon trees and seeds came from a tree my grandmother planted 90 years ago. It was struck by lightning about 3 years ago and is now gone. Luckily, and with foresight, I planted seeds from it that have grown to respectability--2 "females" and 4 "males". So I'm assuming they're called American persimmons. And so delicious! Be patient.

Comment by Daniel W on November 16, 2013 at 8:34pm
Randall thanks for showing your persimmon tree! we will see if I get fruit in a few years! You must wait for them to fall to ground. Are they a named variety?

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