Genetically modified organisms: GMOs, too dangerous to use, or too much benefit, not to use? Whose nonsense?

Concluding comments.

I have a hypothesis that any thread that reaches above 100 comments will deteriorate into off-topic arguments and unrelated stream-of-consciousness comments. I sometimes do the stream of consciousness myself.

I also think that the original poster has an obligation to monitor their own post and subsequent threads, to keep it on topic or let it drift as they see fit. Whether the original poster intervenes with nudges back to topic, efforts to make people step back and have a beer, or closes the thread, is entirely up to the original poster. If the original poster does not intend to follow their topic, then it's time to close it.

This thread, while not intended as a test of my hypothesis, turned out to be an example of same. Interest in the actual original topic waned early on, with divergent evolution of the topic into something else that I didn't care to follow. That process then repeated itself. At 145 comments, and divergence again, I have personally lost interest in following it. If someone else wants to start a "next generation" thread on this topic, please feel free.

With that, this topic is now closed.


This discussion begins as branch of the "Natural" discussion tree, that's now ready for grafting onto its own rootstock and see what grows. Some initial words here. I agreed to present this topc for Sacha, not because I know more about it, but I'm too easily convinced to get myself into these things.

Of course, there is a lot of controversy about genetically engineered crops, that then become "GMOs" (genetically modified organisms) or "Frankenfoods", depending on your nonsense orientation. One could also spin them as "Miracle foods" or "Designer foods" but "GMOs" takes fewer key strokes. For a guy with a case of carpal tunnel going, fewer key strokes is good.

The controversies depend on your biases, what information you collect, and how you weigh it.

Wikipedia article

The controversy:
1. "It's not natural" - well, it isn't. So? I would argue that the "we've always bred plants and animals" argument stretches it - in fact, this is new, we've never put fish genes into potatoes before, or human genes into plants, or whatever weird sounding combination. We've never before bred plants to have toxic pollen, and there is some evidence that insect populations may be effected. But as in the discussion before, the word "natural" is almost meaningless, and does not designate risk or benefit.

2. "It will lead to monopolization of staple food crops by a few compaines, mainly Monsanto" - maybe so. The "Roundup Ready" crops may well create a monopoly for Monsanto. Ultimately, this is a political / social issue, not a biological issue.

3. "Who knows what diseases it will cause" - The argument has been made for allergies. I agree, supervision is needed. An allergen from peanuts could wind upm in corn, and who knows, you might go into anaphylaxis while eating a taco. Other proteins may be allergens. So far.... doesn't seem to be an issue.

4. "It will cause gene pollution" - good point. Genes from GMOs have been found in surrounding plants. This then causes the neighboring farmer to be subjected to patent violation, even though there was no intent to do so, and even if they didn't want those genes in their crops. This principle has been upheld in the US and Canada. In the wrong places, such as the parts of Mexico where corn originates, the genetic pool of corn varieties may become polluted with these new genes. No one knows what effect that will have. Again, this is an issue of regulation, where these crops are grown.

5. "It's not needed" - depends on how you define "needed". A gene to prevent vitamin A deficiency in rice-dependent peoples could prevent 250,000 to 500,000 cases of blindness annually. The key word is "could". "Golden rice"

The dangers of monoculture (Thanks Felch). Past experience with monoculture indicates increased liklihood of disease and disaster. Monocuilture corn cave us corn blight, monoculture bananas resulted in destruction of banana-based economies once and threatens to again. Although, genetic engineering might steer us out of the banana disaster. In forests, tree diversity reduces herbivory by insects (as described in the article titled, "tree diversity reduces herbivory by insects") google search, forest monoculture.

Arguments FOR GMO crops here. Most of these benefits are "potential" although "Roundup ready" is reality.

1. Better resistance to stress: Better pest resistance. Better resistance to severe weather, such as frost, extreme heat or drought.
2. More productive farm animals: Genes might be inserted into cattle to raise their milk yield, for example.
3. More food from less land.
4. Reduce the environmental and human impact of food production and industrial processes.
5. Recovery of damaged or less-fertile land for crops and forests, through creation of salt- and pollutant- tolerant varieties.
6. Bioremediation: Rehabilitation of damaged(polluted) land.
7. Longer shelf lives.easier transport. Reduce spoilage waste, improve dietary diversity.
8. Plant or animal manufacture of vaccines and medicines. Think, insulin.
9. Potential removal of allergenic genes - improve food safety. think, peanuts.

I have mixed feelings about GMO technology and its application. There is potential for nonsense from both sides. My own conclusion is that it's not the technology, it's the application, the regulation, and the weighing of pros/cons in each situation, that matter most. In some cases, the pros seem significant and worth some risk. In other cases, we need to keep out thinking caps on and ask ourselfs if the balance is in the other direction.

Feel free to disagree!

(Note: I removed images that I initially included in this post. Even though I tried to attirbute them to their originalm source, on reading this source, I became concerned that leaving those images in the post could violate fair use. So now they are gone.)

(12/25, title edited to better reflect content of post)

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Replies to This Discussion

Oh, sure, bow before the evil Burpee monopoly! Who do you think invented the photosynthetic sea slug? They're breeding an aquatic army of half-plant, half-animal mutant slugs to take over. It's no accident that they range along the east coast of North America. First stop, Washington, DC. And why do you think sunflowers turn to face the sun all day? That's where Burpee's command and control satellite is orbiting. This has Bill Gates's fingerprints all over it. Your seed packets are probably loaded with nano-thermite.
Re FELCH thread on next page with no more replies... throwing insults and setting his rules for debate here, lest people should leave his royalty's proximity:


You yourself have committed each of the technicalities threefold, with in addition being completely uncivilized. YOU are one for talking about respect, you wouldn't recognize it if it bit you in the ars.

Wanna cry technical fowl anytime something doesn't please you BOOHOO! This is not a legal page, it's a place for humans to share opinions. If we non money-adorers do not fit your plan, BOO fg HOO.

If you can't act civilly, why bother coming here at all?
TNT666: If you can't act civilly, why bother coming here at all?

Which was my point precisely. Y'know, you kinda made sense in some other threads elsewhere and gave people hope. Apparently not. You're just another loon.

Wanna cry technical fowl anytime something doesn't please you BOOHOO!

It's "foul". "Fowl" are birds, like cuckoos and dodos.

This is not a legal page, it's a place for humans to share opinions.

Wrong. This is a forum to discuss nonsense, insane thinking and typhos. Next you'll start squealing about your "rights" just like another prolific loon that finally earned a permanent ban from Nexus as a whole. Let me tell you - you have no "rights" here. None. This is a private group of like minded individuals that have agreed on acceptable discussion and is a haven from the gibberish elsewhere. You are showing zero respect to this group and it's membership. You are spouting nonsense, wild speculation and are now devolving into a common hissy fit.

Listen up -

You don't like the party, then you can leave.

Either discuss things rationally, or piss off. If you can't do either, then we'll kick your ass to the curb. You can report our fascism here.

Consider this the final request to not be stupid.
Dearest Felch, you'd do good to respect your own rules before crying ad hominem to others (English is not my first language so go ahead and correct grammar/spelling to your little heart's content):

-Maintain your sense of humour at all times FAIL
-Decorum FAIL

You claim to have liked my other subject posts, but not this GMO one, this demonstrates your cognitive bias. Toxicology/ecology is my university diploma, therefore among topics I'm most competent to address. This is evidence of your politics tainting your view of the world, which is pretty close to a religious motivation.

To bring this BACK to GMOs, people who readily support corporate biased science such as the GMO crap that is in the media demonstrate a lack of scepticism in this particular regard.
Your posting about the 25 fallacies which I responded to deals with these very pitfalls that are experienced in scientific exploration, but they were not the most talked about paragraphs... It was a excellent post.



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