Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on January 12, 2013 at 11:59pm

Heh, oops.  Yeah, we had a few stumbles, along the way to civilization.

Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on January 13, 2013 at 1:21am

Yes, too bad they didn't know about nutrition and diseases. Well, we have come a long way in those areas, but alas, we still conduct deadly wars and use our powers to destroy and maim. This is the great "Filter" Ruth wrote about. 

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on January 13, 2013 at 2:04am

Unfortunately, at many points in history, the habit of waging wars of conquest and extermination has only proven negative for those societies that don't engage in wars of conquest and extermination.  Social Darwinism kind of sucks sometimes, in small-scale societies.  We haven't had much time with global powers, for the memes to evolve.

Permalink Reply by Luara on January 13, 2013 at 8:31am

"people of Çatal Hüyük got their protein from other sources than animal proteins, especially seeds and nuts. However, while their protein intake was adequate, the lack of animal protein in their diets led to a severe lack of iron, leading to a high incidence of porotic hyperostosis. In addition to the protein sources, diets also included an abundance of cereals, including barley, einkorn, and emmer; many cereals make it more difficult for the body to absorb iron. High cereal intake, as well as lack of animal protein, made for a perfect condition to foster an epidemic of porotic hyperostosis in the population at Çatal Hüyük.

I don't know about the particular situation of those people, but the diet of ancient peoples can be analyzed by examining fossilized tooth plaque.  Contrary to common ideas, Neanderthals ate mostly plant food.  The tooth plaque of various more recent Homo sap. teeth has been examined and it is also mostly from plant food. 

An interesting blog at Scientific American about the real Paleolithic diet:  Human Ancestors Were Nearly All Vegetarians

Plants don't run away, so hunter-gatherers have generally gotten most of their food from plants.  It wasn't easy to kill large game with Stone Age tools. 

It's interesting that this mentions cereal grains though, because people with celiac disease (a kind of gluten intolerance) do have problems absorbing many nutrients, including iron.  Iron deficiency is a common symptom of celiac disease. 

It also seems likely that when cereals first became a staple, people were less adapted to gluten so they had problems.  Celiac disease is less common in populations where cereal grains have been grown for a long time, such as in the Middle East. 

About 10% of people have a reaction to gluten via the innate immune system.  The innate immune reaction to gluten may imply that gluten is somewhat bad for people in general.  

If a vegan diet involves consuming more gluten, it could be damaging.  Gluten has certainly been a powerful toxin for me!  with the susceptibility to autoimmune diseases and allergies that I inherited.

Permalink Reply by Philip Jarrett on January 13, 2013 at 1:40pm

Interesting read.  My wife is a vegetarian...not a Vegan, thank the non-existent diety...and it's easier for me to eat what she does.  But I'm beginning to show signs of an iron deficiency...I'm a regular blood donor and advocate of the practice for everyone who doesn't have a medical reason not to...and the last two times I was rejected from donating because of my low iron level.  

My question is at what point and what effect the domestication of animals...penned cows and chickens are a lot easier to kill than mammoths...has had on the development of city/states from hunter/gatherer societies?

Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on January 13, 2013 at 2:05pm

Thanks for all the comments and ideas expressed here. Lots of questions arise. Is it not interesting that we can look to what some call, "the oldest human development in the world" to help us understand human flourishing. For whatever reason Catal Huyuk did not flourish and possible causes of failure can be found.
As to vegan diets, so many of my friends have tried but became anemic. I am a carnivore, not bragging or complaining, just stating my reality. I have always had gardens, wherever I lived, and love fresh fruits and vegetables. I limit my meat protein to about three ounces per serving at dinner. Breakfast is usually hummus and Dave's Killer bread covered with copious amounts of seeds. Lunch is usually left over dinner.
For those of you who have successfully mastered vegetarian diets, do you have some advise to share?

Permalink Reply by Luara on January 14, 2013 at 4:18pm

For those of you who have successfully mastered vegetarian diets, do you have some advise to share?

Joan, personally I check my nutrient intakes with a computer program.  I take a multimineral so I don't worry about minerals.  I've never become anemic.  Some suggestions: 

- the standard vegan diet is heavy on food allergens:  gluten, corn, soy, legumes in general.  Getting a blood test for celiac disease might be a good idea for anyone; in some countries they screen everybody for celiac disease.   Even if that's negative, if you have mysterious health problems like I did, it might be a good idea to try a hypoallergenic elimination diet and food challenges.  If you find yourself developing an unaccountable love for a particular food, and it's a major food allergen, that's a red flag that you may have an allergy to the food.  For example, this guy, who was a corn maniac and had chronic blisters on his hands, found the corn was causing them.  I was a milk maniac,  I was eating about 6 cups of milk/day!

- There are a couple of vegan RD's (registered dieticians) online who help vegans eat right.  Jack Norris runs the veganhealth.org website, which has lots of good info.  Also Ginny Messina runs theveganrd.com, which also seems good.   Jack Norris and Ginny Messina wrote a book together, Vegan For Life, which is probably quite good.  

- It's hard to eat right longterm on a raw vegan diet, I'd avoid that. 

Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on January 14, 2013 at 4:37pm

 Luara , thank you so much for your information and references. It is a place to start. Several of my family members have celiac disease that they seem to be able to master with selected ingredients. 

Permalink Reply by Luara on January 15, 2013 at 7:10am

Celiac disease is genetic so if you're related to them you might have it too, or a milder gluten sensitivity.  Celiac disease can be asymptomatic, but it has serious consequences like increasing the risk of lymphoma and GI tract cancer and osteoporosis.  One has to get the blood tests for celiac disease while eating a gluten-loaded diet.  There's a simple inexpensive blood test for endomysial antibodies, or there's more extensive testing, like for IgA and IgG antibodies to gluten, that might give an idea if one is gluten sensitive also. 

If someone has celiac disease and they start eating more gluten when they turn vegetarian or vegan, it might aggravate their symptoms. 

I did have symptoms of anemia right before I quit gluten.  I was eating meat at the time and I started taking an iron supplement also when I had the anemia symptoms, so I might have self-treated anemia.  I suddenly started having a lot of celiac symptoms actually, not just symptoms of anemia. 

Permalink Reply by Philip Jarrett on January 15, 2013 at 9:06am

And now for something completely different...

Has anyone noticed how Catal Huyuk is phonetically similair to H.P. Lovecrafts C'thulua?

Permalink Reply by Joseph P on January 15, 2013 at 10:54am

I was leaning towards Catholic, myself.