I guess one thing that is important to see is that the theists almost always have a 'light' inside that is part of the faith-thing and its put there by parents at young age,cozy with mum and dad and JESUS! Its a terrible thing, 'be a god boy/girl or...'. But comforted at the same time thru genuin love by the same parents -you know "there wont be no santa if you dont..." But on existensiell level (why are we lying the santa thing by the way?-lie to kidz?)...Its a diffucult (cult hi hi) stone to move cause
its is emotionel deep and COULD be important for the person to keep it all together. Therefore the anger when touched....The concept 'barnatro' -child-faith - is known here in Scandinavia.


Any thoughts?




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Do you mean to say that their faith brings them comfort? That's certainly true and Christopher Hitchens talked about it at length when he visited Google in California to talk about his book God is not Great

Many of the faithful here in the United States have a very difficult time thinking rationally about questioning their faith because they erroneously tie said faith with their very identity. Sometimes the only way to communicate reason to them is subtly and indirectly. For others, it's pretty much impossible to communicate reason.

Apologies if I'm not fully understanding your message. My Swedish is terrible!

No, i belive that the faith-parents are fusing the real comfort from them with the msg on the faith as they themself was mistreated once and so the terrible thing travel yet another generation. And often many atheists seem to have revolted -rightly so- against this fuse.

How to break this?

I think your thoghts was very interesting. Education in critical thinking (that is NOT negative thinking) is (are?) of course central.

Yeah, I have a thought:

Irrational belief behaves entirely too much like an addiction to opiates.  It's a great high, but take away the goodies and what happens?  All together, class: WITHDRAWAL!!!  Dealing with those who are recovering from religion is similar in too many ways to those who are recovering from physiological addiction to drugs, and should be handled in a very similar fashion.

Perhaps we should establish a NEW 12-step program: B.A. - Believers, Anonymous - except that We DO NOT Require A Higher Power!!!

Whatcha think?

This is new territory for me and it has been some long journey.  My observations, over many years, of myself and others in behavior and practices connected with religion and ritual have led me here. I do believe Christians or people who call themselves Christians, find hope in an afterlife that keeps them comforted and sane.  It works for them because they don't have to face their mortality. I'm a member of ACA (Adult Children of Alcoholics or Adult Children Anonymous). It is a 12-step program and the words "higher power" are utilized for lack of a better label.  I have no problem with that because it's a concept and can mean whatever suits the religious beliefs of any people in the program. For me it means let it go (problems, obsessions, worries, etc.), and that I am a tiny particle in the universe. There is a cosmos out there, galaxies of galaxies to quote Carl Sagan, and my problems, dilemmas, screw-ups are dwarfed when I remember there is creation itself, always something larger than life, larger than me, and the wonder of that. Religion is a practice, not a belief.  So this program accommodates people who practice any religion. For me, "higher power" refers to a kind of faith and belief I can live with.

Its an interesting thought, but it need a context that accept religion just as an addiction. That context are not to be seen for  long time yet.

 -BA -he he, but its a good idea...A BA context to start the walk out of it all. Yes its a very good idea!:D Doesnt the scientolog escapers have something similar?


Mike, there's no denying that you can't FORCE help onto anyone, nor do I think you can force someone to stop believing.  I've said many times that atheism is a CONCLUSION, a personal discovery made by a given person.  We can present facts and relevant data which supports that conclusion, but that is as far as we can go.

It's still the horse that chooses to drink ... and once he does, we can provide the necessary support.

To force anyone to anything creates resistance and that isnt a good way. So, as i aid, a such 12 step method are not to be possible for  long time.

Its like with drug addicts. Genuin love and support. (seem to be impossible)

Thoughts?  I think most of this has been covered in many successive and uninspiring posts across the internet about stuff we essentially already knew.  Sorry about your luck.

Ok..But WE know. But what im thinking of is how to help them to understand without the fight.

To ease people out of fantasies that is fused with the real love of parents etc could be a important thing and i start to belive it goes for the one among us too who have revolted out of faith/thought crime hell. 

Its tempting to fight when you know you are right, but many fights leaves no victory. 

To solve a problem dont always contain the idea of 'winning and losing', but to say this is to  to be rude in another faith-system. 'the winning and the losing'.

To win and lose are an evolutonary rest not really needed but kids are full of it, 'mummy mummy lok at mee..mee..' cause as kids we are TOTALY depentent of the grown ups, one can compare to another 'built in' thing, the stonehard will to share all VERY alike, you know, a bag of candy, two kids. 'One for you one for me' etc

This stuff some scholars say may have come in the 45 000 years or so when we walked with the animals after season.(BC by hart arent very acurat:)It was like a walking village and the kids ran in a big bunch. To survive this become important.

Its even in the bible but the scholars isnt to be trusted by the faith over facts ppl. 

You know the herds men (the old way) was killed by Cain (the new way-to grow stuff but chained to the ground) This the religious take as a historical record when its probably is a passage about our earliest time. There are still nomadic people in the world so this change arent over yet.

Those texts had probably a now long gone substance but generations of not very cleaver ppl have destroyd it.

When these bronz age tribes was forced to settle and start their time as farmers they put it in their book and it backfired as i see it...

I mean the kids of Adam and Eve is said to created familys but faith ppl dont want to talk about WITH WHO!?

Its a laugh really, if it wasnt so serious...





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