My response to Todd: to claim, as you do by writing, “insulting these people for being upset about abortion or gay rights”. 

Those who oppose Christian Taliban do so through language. These are not insults or put-downs or trivialization or demonizations, they are descriptors: abortion and gay rights are not political questions to be answered by politicians, they are individual human rights and violence is not used as a tool to achieve these aims, language is the tool.

Individuals have the responsibility to live within the laws of the land and if one disagrees with the laws, then they can work to change them. We have already asked the question about whether abortion is legal or not and the Supreme Court decided women have the right to control their own bodies. Obviously, there are those who disagree with the abortion decision and they have the right and responsibility to work to change the law. 

Look at the history of anti-abortion believers; they include assaults, blocked access of women to health care, name calling, and murder, all crimes against people, in addition to destruction of property, through arson, and vandalism. 

Remember the crimes committed by those who took part in illegal behaviors and defend the use of whatever means necessary to achieve their ends? They perceived themselves as justified to commit homicide in defense of unborn children. This is only a partial list but do their crimes justify their means? Eric Rudolph, James Kopp, Paul Jennings Hill, Scott Roeder, Michael Griffin and Peter Knight. Do you hear the silence of the religious in response to their crimes? I do! Do the ends justify the means? 

Christian terrorism is a political weapon used against women’s rights and Gay rights.  Christian Taliban members are willing and able to use violence to achieve their ends. 

Does this make any sense? In my opinion, it is my responsibility and right to describe their attitudes, behaviors, speech and action as I see them. No insult intended. Descriptions based on facts are not insults.

Views: 502

Replies to This Discussion

How I hate the way they use the words Pro Life! We are more pro life than they are: we prevent a lot of suffering and we're not afraid to shoulder part of the burden. I wonder if there's one person among those pro-lifers who knows what it is to be an unwanted child?

Right! Chris you state it so well. I wonder how much change we can bring about in our lifetimes? I sure want to give it a good try. Getting off fossil fuels, creating whole new industries using natural forces of nature, simplifying our lifestyles, eliminating hunger, homelessness and war. Oh! I do hope I see that. 

I watched a video last night of a panel discussion at the "Kilkenomics 2012 November 1-4. You may be interested in watching it. There are several references to the Dutch economy, expressed in possitive terms. I am interested in your reaction.

Kilkenomics 2012: Panel Discussion

I really dislike Max Keiser's voice and manner of speaking, but usually names events as I interpret them. 

William K Black has a powerful voice and makes sense to me. 

Well, hope you have some fun, and interesting reading. 

This laptop got stuck again, I've only seen half of the video, but the story that came to me once more is that of zugzwang (can you play chess?). I see zugzwang in everything that concerns us, from very simple to complicated, and if I cannot understand what they're really doing because I have never had the training to understand dirty work, I'm certain it will end in zugzwang.

e.g. 35 years ago everyone rented a house or an apartment, but rents rocketed sky-high and apartments were rather cheap. So everyone bought a house or an apartment and all was well, until the banks organised a crisis...  now every house owner is afraid about the mortgage, and we hear more and more about bankrupcies and evictions. We'll see the same pattern everywhere.


Gee, you can't win; rent prices rocket, mortgages turn risky! What is the prudent choice? Jeeze, if they don't get you one way, they get you another. Have your taxes gone up a lot, and  is renting or owning better as far as taxes and insurance are concerned? It really is hard to plan when the whole world economy is in flux.
I figure I have another 25 years to live and I will stay right here, with my garden, which will go to weeds as I get older. But what the heck, weeds can be pretty.


Joan, it's true that if people rent the biggest spiffiest apt they can afford, or buy the biggest most well appointed house in the best neighborhood they can afford, then they will be living on a razor's edge.  I still think buying a house that's more practical, that needs some work, but has solid framing and no major problems, and fixing it up, is more secure.  I did it, and over 10 years rebuilt, renovated, painted, tore out walls, reframed, out in walls, and wound up with a place far better than I thought I could afford, for far less cost, and it's paid for.  You got a house that you made your own as well.  It's not for everyone and there are no easy answers, but it's one way that people can meet their needs and maybe have some security.

Weeds have flowers.  Flowers have nectar.  Bees use the nectar to make honey.  So weeds can have a sweet purpose too.  :)

The problem, Sentient, is those who have grandiose ideas of living as if they had the income to support their hoped for income are down the drain if they lose jobs or businesses. The ones that break my heart are the ones who live within their means, budget, forego immediate pleasure for long term goals, who save and through no fault of their own lose jobs, homes, health and retirement plans and live off savings, and credit cards. I can't think of a better way to destroy family tranquility and create breakup.

The smart ones know how vulnerable they are, steel themselves to the facts of life, prepare their kids to be flexible and go with the flow of the real world.

The wise ones develop a mental strength to retain their self-respect and dignity and prepare their kids for mental strength. 

My job as mother, grandmother, great-grandmother is to be a solid dock upon which they know they can rely for love and compassion and information. Unfortunately  pensions have been hit very hard and many of us lost a large chunk of our retirement incomes. So we have to be strong of mind and character, as well. 
My anger is that owners of capital convince owners of labor that the only way to structure a society is to produce profits that go to investors, leaving out labor. People who believe capital is more deserving than labor should have to make the cars, build houses, dig ditches, clean up after them and cook their own meals. 

Now the good news in all this, there is pleasure in hunkering down. Simple living requires thought and time and energy. There is also opportunity to realize economic booms and busts are deliberate and planned, not by some conspiracy, but the consequences of economic and political principles. Greed, designed into fiscal policy, that takes from workers to enrich capital always has to have balancing energy to counterbalance the inequality of reward from production. Buyers can boycott companies that do not pay living wages even as they make profits for CEOs, CFOs, and shareholders. Workers can strike, picket and organize. 

Closing down of Twinkies "because of strikers", can be a good thing in that a niche opens up for individual entrepreneurship or a different form of government. 

Hard times, labor unrest, and struggling families working for a balanced economy between capital and labor, can be a good thing, even as it is hard. 

Yes, i agree there is a lot of hardship.  My heart goes out to many people.  Also no matter how careful we are to plan for the future, it can be a house of cards.  

I don't think the Hostess bakery workers will come out ahead.  They will lose their jobs and have very hard times.  The whole think looks to me like a union busting situation.  Maybe an excuse for selling off the brands.  Sounds a bit like Bain Capital to me.

I agree 100% Sentient. I, too smell a union busting strategy going on. 

If the workers lose their jobs and their unions, what are their options? It seems to me they will have to look outside the box for new and less corrupt ways to organize themselves.

Just look back in history, when workers during the Great Depression had no work and no way to support themselves they did several things:
one was to make changes in government by putting pressure on FDR for what turned out to be public works programs.
Another was to become entrepreneurial themselves, create their own jobs, first by going around doing handy-work, then learning skilled trades or nursing and teaching, etc., through education, which was also funded through government.
Some lobbied for pension reform, and health plans reform. A lot of changes occured that would not have if they had continued as slave-labor. 
Also, look back to the Depression of 1890s, people left their low-wage job packed up their families and moved west. Thus the Great Migration would not have happened if they had continued as slave-labor. 

The problem with current events, the western movement has now completed filling the continent, production can be sent out of USA seeking slave-labor in poor countries. Exploitation is required to maintain a successful laissez-faire capitalist system. Remember capitalism needs poverty to be able to create great wealth. At some point, wage-workers see the connection between political and economic freedom and economic exploitation. 

I hope we don't have to start a war to siphon off able bodies into the military and keep them from agitating here.

Also,this NewYorker article makes a point:  Hostess may have been on the way out anyway, due to inability to adapt to a changing market. 

It's criminal that pensions are considered an archaic concept.  What a corrupt world corporations have created.

for the radical right, obama victory brings fury and fear.


Ole Miss...several hundred mostly white students protested furiously, reportedly yelling anti-black racial slurs and throwing rocks at passing cars.


The loss of a white majority in the United States has helped drive a truly explosive growth of the radical right in the last three years, and that now seems likely to accelerate. Hate groups in recent years have risen to more than 1,000,

Those quotes not all about gay or women's rights, but same hate groups in opposition.  They are not kind and gentle people.


“Get ready for God’s wrath,” wrote one. “The people are choosing Satan’s finest.” “Fudgies win again,” wrote another. “Incidents of HIV [to] rise again.” And a third: “America is going to pay for its unbelief and its love of abortion and homosexuals. … And IT DESERVES IT.”

Oh Jeez! We had a horrible mess in this area with the Aryan Nations which the SPLC successfully bankrupt. No, the radical right are not nice people. This is simply further evidence of some bad days ahead. One thing is for sure, feeling helpless and hopeless gets me no where, so the only alternative I see, for me at least, is to get really clear on what happens, who causes problems and how, and build my principles on firm footings. Prepare for the storm and find peace and joy everywhere I can find it. 


You're right, booklover! All the love, care and joy that you give and receive today is as essential as good food - you'll all be stronger and healthier because of it.




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