Comment

Comment by sk8eycat on October 3, 2012 at 12:08pm

Greg.  Oh.  I getcha.

Most of what I know about Roman methods of trials and punishments comes from reading Colleen Mc Cullough's "Masters of Rome" series.  I know that's fiction, but it's very well-researched (13 years before she started the 1st book!), so I believe she's accurate.  The only problem is that the novels only cover the last 100+ years of the Republic (and what ruined it...Cato and other hyper-coonservatives, and growth.), and Romans of that time had a horror of capital punishment.  The most extreme penalty (in Rome itself) was to throw the guilty party off the Tarpeian Rock.  Otherwise they were usually exiled.

A private citizen had the right to crucify one of his/her slaves.  Julius Caesar crucified 50 or 60 pirates who had captured him for ransom when he was in his early 20s.  And then there was the Spartacus-led revolt and its gruesome aftermath.

But during the time of the Republic, capital punishment of any kiind was rare.  I don't really know much about the empire.

Comment by Plinius on October 3, 2012 at 3:08am

I don't find stuff like that when I read about agnostics, anti-theists, atheists, Brights, freethinkers, humanists, secular humanists, skeptics, or spiritual humanists. Have you ever read or heard of violent supporters of these beliefs? A lot of them suffer at the hands of theists ... and non-believers certainly have been called all kinds of vile things.

And can I defend myself without descending to their level? I think that everybody has got a right to his/her own opinion, own body, own way to live or die - and those rights should only be restricted where they violate other's rights. I wouldn't know how to talk to theists, or how to influence them. I tried with my fundie parents, when they lived, but anything beyond "Would you have some more tea?" was spoken in a language they couldn't understand.

Comment by Joan Denoo on October 3, 2012 at 1:19am

"Are Christians Delusional?" Richard Carrier Skepticon 3

Richard Carrier author of "Sense and Goodness without God", "Proving History", and "Not the Impossible Faith". A Ph.D. in ancient history from Columbia University, he specializes in the modern philosophy of naturalism, the origins of Christianity, and the intellectual history of Greece and Rome, and ancient philosophy, science and technology.

Comment by sk8eycat on October 3, 2012 at 12:45am

Greg, I have a problem with that reference about Romans and crucifixion.  the author treats Jesus and Peter as actual people, and their crucifictions as historical events.  There is NO evidence for either.

Yes, the Romans crucified rebellious slaves, pirates, and others.  But there's no historical evidence for those two characters, and Saul/Paul who was the first person to write about Jesus never claimed that he lived and died anywhere on this planet.

I still wonder what would have happened if somebody who was ordered to carry his (or her) own crossbar said, "Up yours!  I'm not carrying that thing!" And stuck to it.  They may have flogged him mercilessly or run him through with a sword, but that would have either given him a quicker death, or left him too weak to carry anything.

Long before the Romans took over Judea, they would break a crucified person's legs as an act of "mercy," so they would die faster.

Comment by Joan Denoo on October 2, 2012 at 10:38pm

Timeline for the Crusades and Christian Holy War to c.1350

Is it not interesting that when we discuss religion, discussions of pain, torture, domination, and so much hate whether on the part of those who crucify christians, to those christians who burned, drowned, cut off noses, invaded in the countless Inquisitions. Underlaying all this blood and guts was control, power, greed, egos thinly veiled as devotion to their gods. They believe they are entitled to land, people, treasure and have the right to dominate any who got in their way. 

I don't find stuff like that when I read about agnostics, anti-theists, atheists, Brights, freethinkers, humanists, secular humanists, skeptics, or spiritual humanists. Have you ever read or heard of violent supporters of these beliefs? A lot of them suffer at the hands of theists ... and non-believers certainly have been called all kinds of vile things. 

Maybe we are just too lazy, or disinterested in such values. As for myself, getting up in the morning offers me opportunities beyond imagination, and I go to bed at night satisfied with my day. Perhaps I just have it too easy and don't know those who have a more difficult life than I. I do know I laugh when I think how ridiculous all these theists sound when they prattle.  Perhaps Ihould wear a mask to hide my disdain. 

In the meantime, I had an absolutely delicious bowl of clam chowder today. 

Comment by Loren Miller on October 2, 2012 at 10:02pm

I am I, indeed.

Fuck with me at your peril, because I will FUCK BACK, and I will not be pleasant about it.

Comment by sk8eycat on October 2, 2012 at 8:55pm

Joan, my late friend, Judith Hayes, wrote something about the  story of Jesus having to carry his own cross to the execution site (which is silly for many reasons, mainly because the Romans built the crosses ON site), and the exhortation to new Christians to "take up your cross, and follow Christ."  Plus the morbid Catholic ritual of the Stations of the Cross.

She asked, "What if he had refused to carry the cross?"  "You wanna crucify me?  Fine.  YOU carry the cross."

Imagine...

Comment by Joan Denoo on October 2, 2012 at 8:06pm

Faith is the surrender of the mind

Isn't the religious imperative to surrender, yield, obey, let go-let god, turn the other cheek, crucify yourself in imitation of the crucified christ?

No wonder grown-up problems don't get solved, unresolved conflicts don't get resolved.

Comment by Joan Denoo on October 2, 2012 at 12:05pm

A fellow asked me some questions and here are my answers:
"Who are you?" I am I.
"Why are you here?" To participate in life.
"Where are you going to?" I shall dance in star dust, just as you.
"You have nothing to navigate by," I have stars, constellations, electromagnetism, forces of nature.
"because it's all relative to you being the center of the Universe," I am not the center of the universe, I exist in the universe with all that implies. I am part of it all, I exist, not superior to or inferior to anybody or anything, we are all passengers on planet Earth and it is one wondrous ride.

Comment by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on October 2, 2012 at 11:39am

Horray! As a Pennsylvanian I celebrate the judicial decision that the voter suppression law here will not take effect here for this election.

Pennsylvania Judge Blocks Voter-ID Law

(The "view interactive" state by state breakdown map didn't work for me.)

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