I'd be interested to see where we all stand regarding abortion and euthanasia. I've given up trying to speak with non academic Pro-choicers in forums, but it will nice to dicuss where we each stand or argue our differing stances.

I'm against general abortions except where it involves rape. & if the foetus is about to soon die anyway.

Regarding euthanasia I'm in principle for cases where a person can give consent. Though at the moment I'm against living wills that are relied on to given the consent.

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The death of the mother is something I would like to discuss.

For me it isn't generally a factor. Say for instance a parent wanted to make some extra money by storing some toxic waste. Which leads to the parent and a child both getting a disease where they need an organ donation, but there is only one left.

Say the child is a new born non-person; should the fact that it is less developed or that the parent has stronger established social relationships automatically mean the child has less worth than the parent?

To me that is a no. They equally should have a shot at life, especially since for the mother, she caused the life threatening situation to come about by her choice.

For me I would let fate decide.

I do think by taking the stance that the life of the mother has more value than the foetus, that Pro-lChoicers will see it helping to support their case by saying even we don't think the life of the feotus has the same moral worth as the mother.

Otherwise I agree with rape and but no exceptions incest.
I really do see that nay of this is relevant. We aren’t living in a social vacuum nor on a desert island, where practical exceptions would be valid. So yes in principle in certain circumstances one could support your case, but living on desert islands or having no one to take care of the child are exceptions to the rule.

The main precept I have is one cannot use severe personal health circumstances that were self induced to justify killing or allowing to die another moral entity just to save yourself; especially when you have put that other entity in a situation of dependence.

If you can think of other situations where this is allowed pls show them, but what I’m after is consistency and if anything, one could argue in these cases that in fact the life of the innocent party takes precedence.

If a murderer using poison accidentally poisoned himself as well as the victim and there was on antidote I think one would surely argue that the innocent party should be the one who gets to use the antidote.

I would also say we are looking at cases where all things being equal eg both would lead a normal health life if the other died.


An yes against rape but not incest where rape isn’t involved. There are in fact cases of consenting adult incestuous relationships.
I still see no reason to favour a woman over the child. What one must do in these cases is look for an underlying justification and the see how it stacks up in different situations.

If you are saying that the deciding moral factor is the strength of their existing social relationships that would seem to indicate that you would allow the poisoner in the earlier case off because he has or has more friends. I’ve encountered progressive philosophers who recognise that if the foetus warrants equal moral treatment then it should be treated with equal moral consideration. Now since the number or the fact one has friends isn’t a relevant moral consideration between you and another friendless human person, nor should it be for a friendless non person human foetus either.

The philosophy on the subject looks for inherent qualities in that individual to grant moral relevance not accidental relational circumstances that can vary from individual to individual.

Another way to approach it what if a pro-choicer used your reasoning to just advocate general abortions, wouldn’t you object that the fact that it hasn’t lived a independent life with friends is irrelevant?
Nice to have you back Chris
BTW Chris I'll reply to your messages later

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