Reforming Counter-Apologetics


Reforming Counter-Apologetics

Dedicated to realizing the fundamental impulses that drive belief, and seeking secular parallels ~ creating a format for discussion that doesn't address apologetical arguments as much as it replaces the need for those arguments to begin with.

Members: 47
Latest Activity: Mar 7, 2014

Discussion Forum

Formulating a New Argument

Started by Park Bierbower. Last reply by Jedi Wanderer Jun 16, 2012. 11 Replies

I was listening to a podcast a few weeks ago, and they were covering the apologetical argument known as Pre-supposational Apologetics.  Its a clever argument, hard to refute if you're not already…Continue

Analytic thinking can decrease religious belief

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Steph S. Apr 27, 2012. 1 Reply

Analytic Thinking Can Decrease Religious Belief, Study ShowsJust using their "analytic" system of thinking…Continue

Impulse that drives belief -death anxiety?

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Grinning Cat Apr 4, 2012. 1 Reply

New University of Otago research suggests that when non-religious people think about their own death they become more consciously skeptical about religion, but unconsciously grow more receptive to…Continue

Tags: fear of death

The Accursed Argument (from lack of proof)

Started by Jedi Wanderer. Last reply by Jedi Wanderer Jan 8, 2012. 13 Replies

All of us should by now be intimately familiar with this argument. It is the foundation of the arguments used by a religious friend of mine that I met on MySpace and have argued extensively on the…Continue

Comment Wall


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Comment by Joseph P on February 11, 2011 at 9:36am
Park, man, I don't think she's single.  :-P
Comment by Park Bierbower on February 11, 2011 at 8:47am

@tara reigle

You sound smart and look hottt, want to hook up???

let me know!


Comment by RejuvenArt on February 11, 2011 at 8:36am

I'd kick her! No, I'm just kidding. She's our adorable "puppy" lol. I'm such a softy. Besides, she knows... the second you walk in and look at the torn up sofa (or even if you happen to look at her before the hellacious mess) she tucks her tail and cowers. She does not demonstrate those behaviors when she doesn't tear things apart upon our arrival, but is instead jumping up to lick our faces. So my mind always wanders... She knows what she has done is not something she is permitted to do without consequence... due to her cowering. So why does she do it in first place? She not realize the result of her destructive behavior has consequences until till she is in our presence? Does she remember the consequences at that point? Dogs 'remember' scents (perhaps scientists use a different word than 'remember' to describe the familiarity with their sense of scent). They can be in the presence of a person after several years of absence, and 'know' them, display more excited behaviors to see them than a stranger. I do not think they can apply any recollection of a consequence (if they have one) from a past behavior, when presented with a similar situation to behave differently. But then again, dogs trained for firefighting seem to be able to..? A system of rewards and discipline in combination of patience and repetition is used to train dogs, and train them well. Some are smarter than others, at least from bread to bread. I keep thinking the same thing when I read over a few of the recent discussions - Various animals and life forms, just like humans, seem to have varying ability as to whether or not they can apply a form of intelligence to their complex behaviors. Some may have a degree of intelligence and most may not have any, yet still perform complex behaviors. Through natural selection, those who have a degree of intelligence, such as the octopuses (octopi and/or octopodes - all three are correct boys - octopus comes from greek and then went then to latin - so it became a correct use of plural - but was not the original plural. Octopodes is used when refering to the classification plural - and is rarely used - as we dont often refer to a species by their classification except in scientific circles, and octopuses is the accepted and most commonly used plural in the English language, used in the US and UK - so I'll use octopuses) will be more successful at survival.. eventually bringing the evolution of that species to a higher cognative level and ability - but not every test subject would utilize those potential abilities. This seems to be the most likely scenario if one actually applies their knowledge of varying intelligent application. Some species have evolved furthar than others, with homo sapiens to be the most intelligent species we have experienced thus far.


(first post so be easy on me boys ;)


@wanderer - love your comment! It is astonishing, isn't it!? Those who fail to see how awe-inspiring such things are.. surely need new eyes ;)

Comment by Park Bierbower on February 11, 2011 at 8:29am

considering their possible intelligence, maybe we should call them 'octopeople' or 'octopersons?'



Comment by Joseph P on February 11, 2011 at 7:48am
Comment by Park Bierbower on February 11, 2011 at 7:30am
So after some research it seems as though the extent of the octopuses (apparently they don't like saying 'octopi') intelligence is a matter of great debate~ critics say that the tests that have confirmed it don't have adequate controls and are merely the anthropomorphisation of an incredible animal.  I would agree about both, but due to the real lack of research on it, I'd like to point out to them that the very real intelligence of humans could be of great debate too~ while we know there are some very intelligent people out there, by and large most people fall into the category of 'lacking greatly.'  I couldn't find the video that I had seen earlier about mimicry, which was truly amazing.  What has been shown, however, is that they are excellent at mimicking and are aware of their themselves, at least to the extent that they are aware of the size of their body and its ability to stretch and fit into different obstacles.  The real argument against claims of intelligence is that 'complex' behavior doesn't denote a degree of intelligence.  I agree, and would readily apply that to the human population as well (mostly out of spite.)  They are, however, the most intelligent of the invertebrates, are capable of learning through mimickry, have the ability to spacially reason, and show this intelligence naturally (they live solitarily.)  I will continue my research, but what I have seen is enough to give us humans pause when we think about the cultural paradigm in which we live in regards to animals.  My conclusion is that most animals have cognitive function just like humans, just at different levels.  Dogs certainly don't have the same ability of humans, but I would roughly equate them to a very young child~ so next time you want to kick your dog for tearing up your couch after you are out eating dinner at your moms last night with tara, don't. (little humor there, true story)
Comment by Jedi Wanderer on February 11, 2011 at 5:30am
Ok can I just say how cool it is to have met others with the same passion for science as I have? Yeah, Octupi are awesome, animals are amazing, life is amazing! I'm glad I'm not the only one who geeks out over this stuff.
Comment by Park Bierbower on February 10, 2011 at 8:31pm

btw, when I mentioned squids, its theorized that they use complex patterns and colour shifts to communicate with others.  There are very distinct patterns that they use, so its not just for camouflage.  Its actually been observed directing the movements of 'schools' through pattern variations.  Again, I will source all of this soon.


The real importance of this is, we are not alone.  Our ignorance makes us think we are.

Comment by Park Bierbower on February 10, 2011 at 8:28pm

Marc, while I can't attest to the capacity of a primate, I know that Octopi do have that capability.  As the highest order of invertibrates, they split from our ancestors many million years ago, however, the most advanced vertibrates on the planet have develped skills that mirror our own, and some that surpass.  The squid has the ability to change its appearance using its 'thoughts,' and what I mean by that is that they don't dump a chemical that then reacts in their skin~ the cells have the ability to change colour, and are directly linked to their neural network (as far as we know.)  Octopi also have the ability to solve complex puzzles after watching another octopi solve it~ and if I remember correctly can actually solve it a different way, once they understand the concept used.  They also seem to have the ability to measure and judge~ when put in a box with a hole too small to escape from, they won't even try~ but change that hole by a centimeter or so (so they can fit through) and they will quickly size it up and escape.  

They are actually very amazing creatures, and don't get nearly the credit they deserve.  as far as faculties similar to ours, they are among the closest on the planet, if not the closest.  I will start providing source material on this topic tomorrow morning.

Comment by Marc Draco on February 10, 2011 at 6:17pm
If animals have a sense of self - and I think they do - then we have a lot of reevaluation to do. Sleep now 4 me.

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