I've crossed posted this with the "winning arguments" group - but I'm also placing a copy here because it relates to my activities as an atheist on youtube.


I'm in a debate with a theist on youtube.

This round started off when he posted this:

>>But God cannot break the Eternal Laws of the Universe - such as: the "Law of Opposition" in All Things. This states that everything has its opposite! I.E. Good/bad; right/wrong; evil/righteous; hot/cold; dark/light; up/down; sin/obedience; punishment/reward; heaven/hell/ Jesus Christ/Lucifer. Unchangeable. Without the Law of Opposition there would be NO CHOICE. This life would not be able to work for our good. This is why Communism & Socialism is anti-christ.

At my insistence that he please explain what the hell he was talking about, he then presented a list of 'eternal laws' (not laws of the universe - I already called him on that) but - and this is the interesting bit - laws he says God cannot and will not try to interfer with these.

1 - The Law of Gravity
2 - The Law of Cause & Effect (Karma)
3 - Choice
4- The Eternal nature of God & man.
5 The Law of Opposition (in all things-which states that everything has its 'opposites').


Were' currently debating 5: the universal law of opposites.

I started off by demonstrating how light and dark and heat and cold work and are not opposite 'things' and then pointed it's not universal, and most likely a trick of linguistics: you can't have an un-dog or an anti-cabbage for example. That pissed him off.

And this followed: Now how do you make sense of this - and what do you think my response should be?

He also seems to be using a keyboard with a sticky CAPS LOCK key.

You are not using relevant words. Of course "cabbage" does not have an opposite, neither does tomato or tree or egg. Other nouns have no opposites. BUT, I am talking about making CHOICES in our daily lives, & making decisions like; right over wrong; obedience over sin; lying over honesty; greed over generosity; & love over hate, etc...things which result in good & bad consequences & eventual Godly Judgment for our Eternal Salvation OR damnation!

Choices are made possible when there are two opposing facts or situations, that enable us to exercise our free/moral agency/Choice - which eventually lead to a Judgment. There is an opposition in ALL things. Even if we choose "not to believe this Truth"...the "opposite" is "to believe it."
Without the Law of Opposition, It would be impossible to make a Choice! Because there would be only ONE.

Freedom to choose is so important to God's Eternal Plan of Salvation for man. In fact, His Plan could not exist, & neither could we without it. Imagine if Adam & Eve did NOT have "a choice" to eat or not eat the fruit...if there were no TWO trees in the Garden! They would have lived in Eden "forever," without ever having any children...us! We would not be here! There would be no need for a Tempter/Satan...therefore, we would have no need of the "opposite," a Saviour/Christ.
choice, well not actually a "choice" even, but there would only be ONE way!

There would be no Judgment, & therefore, no heaven nor its "opposite," hell. See how The Law of Opposition makes choice possible, & God's Plan for us work? He "chose" to create us and our Universe. Christ CHOSE to come here as our Saviour, else we would all end up in Hell forever! But then again, we wouldn't even be here if Adam had not chosen to eat the fruit! And around & round we go! The whole Universe works, BECAUSE of the Law of Opposition/ Choice & GOD's Almighty Power!


What do you think are the possible approaches into addressing this morass of non sequiturs with an argument that doesn't expose me to making some claim that he is later able to seize on?

Your advice is appreciated.


P.S if you want to complete context of the discussion it is to be found here:


Views: 29

Replies to This Discussion

Oh, good! The scenario and its off-shots and variations have been around for a while.

I first heard of Kohlberg and that example in the 1970s.
I realise I've also recognise Shelly Kegan (mentioned in the wiki article) :

I've been watching a series of online philosophy lectures he gave on the manifold problems of duality when it comes to the mind and body problem.

It comes with the alluring URL:

Hmmm, interesting. Thanks for the URL. I might follow up on this.

BTW, I came across an excellent on-line series called The Historical Jesus by, I think, Sheenan. Google it!
His argument is moot in that he is injecting his opinion as to the nature of his god rather than the broader, and more concise assumptions taught by the Judeo-Christian majority. Being: God is: all powerful, all knowing, all loving and all just. The poster is saying that his god is not powerful enough to interfere with his own creation? His god created hate, sin and death? His god did not know what Satan was going to do before He created Satan or Adam & Eve for that matter? "Christ CHOSE to come here as our Saviour..." to die for our sins? That implies foreknowledge of the sins yet to be created ... in the future. God is creating flawed subjects who must live as he rules else they suffer eternal damnation? Sounds like life back under the Roman [catholic?] Empire. Remember, those making the extraordinary claims are the ones who shoulder the burden of proof and all this chump is doing is throwing his opinions at you.



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