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Climate Concerns

The "CLIMATE CONCERNS" group is dedicated to discussion regarding the topic of the ever present and serious issue of changes to our climate due to the introduction into the atmosphere of human induced effects which prove harmful to the environment and which eventually may prove destructive to our planet. 

Members: 53
Latest Activity: on Thursday

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Cascading Failure Foreshadow

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Loren Miller on Wednesday. 3 Replies

At the end of May, the media reported 300 fire hydrants were damaged across France, as locals tried to beat record high temperatures there.On June 3rd, in Iran’s Eastern Sistan region, …Continue

Tags: water and power fail during heat wave, cascading failures, electricity, water, Climate Destabilization

Flooding away your house or favorite vacation spot

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Thomas Murray Jun 13. 3 Replies

In 33 years, San Diego and Key West will be getting a 100 year flood every month while places in Hawaii will experience them every 2-3 days. …Continue

Tags: flooding cities

Odd results of Climate Change

Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner Apr 9. 68 Replies

Take an amusing quiz to learn about unexpected effects of Climate Change. After each multiple choice question, you see if you were right (and the right answer if you weren't).…Continue

Tags: odd effects of Climate Change

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Comment by Donald L. Engel on December 12, 2016 at 4:40pm

Okay.

Comment by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on December 12, 2016 at 4:37pm

Donald, perhaps you misinterpreted the orange peaks inside the grey ovals. Those were margins of error. The black lines were the actual peaks.

Forcing in the previous warming periods was CO2 from volcanoes. I never said it was anybody's fault. I avoid blaming language in favor of talking about responsibility. "Fault" implies there's something wrong with a person, which isn't helpful. I try to avoid unthinking put downs of others.

It's interesting that you dismiss the model projections as pure conjecture. Climate models are the result of thousands of scientists and decades of work. Moreover, they tend to be conservatively biased because they only include trends that have happened long enough to me measured over significant time, quantified and cross checked with other methods. This means the models lag fast-moving climate changes by at least seven years.

Case in point, most models don't predict the Arctic to be ice free in September for 7 to 13 years. Right now the people at the Arctic Sea Ice Forum agree that what's happening NOW, wasn't predicted by the models. Have you looked at the Arctic data the last few weeks? The sea ice isn't freezing properly.

image source

Look at how much warmer it is than it should be in the Arctic and Greenland.

image source

The sky might not be falling, but the climate is destabilizing. Science helps us see with satellites. You can look at these sites yourself, watch it unfold day by day. It's scary, but it's real, Donald. Not misinformation peddled by the 1%.

Comment by Donald L. Engel on December 12, 2016 at 3:55pm

"Here's a similar chart which expands the last part, and adds the expected changes in temperature due to greenhouse gases."

Ruth, that is pure conjecture, and you didn't answer my question as to who was on this planet to cause the previous warming periods.  And, if there was no one here during that time, why is it man's fault this time?  And we are still NOT AS WARM AS THE LAST FOUR WARMING PERIODS!!!

The last chart you posted has warming periods that do not match up with the chart just below it.  The peaks in each chart differ from the peaks in the other chart as to which warming periods were warmer or cooler.

The sky is not falling!!

Comment by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on December 12, 2016 at 3:37pm

Donald, I'd like reply to your earlier claims about the rate of temperature rise, and your question

Since man was not on this earth during those previous  peak periods , what caused them?  And why is it man's fault this time?
... the paleoclimate record also reveals that the current climatic warming is occurring much more rapidly than past warming events.

As the Earth moved out of ice ages over the past million years, the global temperature rose a total of 4 to 7 degrees Celsius over about 5,000 years.

source

According to Robert Scribbler our current rate of temperature rise is 40 times what it was at the end of the last ice age.

2016's global average is expected to be 1.2°C above pre-industrial, despite our neutral El Nino status.

source

The end ice age rise was caused by volcanic CO2.

Fossil fuel carbon emissions are about 100 times that of volcanoes during any given year.

Add natural sources such as drought and wildfire to that.

We don't see the heat over land for a couple of decades, because 90% goes into the ocean.

We have the same greenhouse gases in our air now as during the Middle Miocene 15 million years ago, long before humans evolved. Those conditions are "baked in", kind of like when you put raw cake batter in the oven, set the temperature and walk away. If we felt the rise immediately, it would already be hot enough to topple civilization, i.e. 4°C rise.

These atmospheric concentrations are now roughly equivalent to the lower range CO2 levels of the Middle Miocene climate epoch of 14-16 million years ago. Meanwhile, atmospheric CO2 equivalent concentrations, which include other greenhouse gasses like methane, averaged 485 parts per million in 2015 and likely were around 490 parts per million during 2016. These CO2e values approach the upper Middle Miocene range.

During the Miocene of 14-16 million years ago, atmospheric CO2 levels, which had hovered around 400 parts per million for about 10 million years jumped higher due to volcanic activity. Global temperatures rose from about 2-3 C hotter than Holocene values to around 4 C hotter. Antarctic ice melted and seas which were around 60 feet higher than today lifted to around 130 feet above present day levels.

CO2e means carbon dioxide equivalent. It includes all of the other greenhouse gases like methane, nitrous oxide, CFCs, etc.

source

I should note that this time google searches for relevant data brought up an astonishing number of denier sites. It's getting harder and harder for people without degrees in science to locate scientific findings instead of lies. Without years of training, the misinformation websites are very had to distinguish.

Comment by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on December 12, 2016 at 2:35pm

Donald, I reviewed your chart and accompanying posts.

You say now, "I posted a chart showing 420,000 years of climate history.  It shows that we are coming out of the last of 5 warming periods.  And while we are nearing the temperature peaks attained by the previous four warming periods.  We aren't there yet. "

It's difficult to see current temperature change in right side of your chart, given the scale.

Here's a similar chart which expands the last part, and adds the expected changes in temperature due to greenhouse gases.

The Medieval Warm Period temperature reconstruction varies according to the location sampled.

A number of studies that have attempted to produce very large spatial-scale reconstructions have come to the same conclusion: that medieval warmth was heterogeneous in terms of its precise timing and regional expression ...

The evidence currently available indicates that NH mean temperatures during medieval times (950–1100) were indeed warm in a 2-kyr context and even warmer in relation to the less sparse but still limited evidence of widespread average cool conditions in the 17th century (Osborn and Briffa, 2006). However, the evidence is not sufficient to support a conclusion that hemispheric mean temperatures were as warm, or the extent of warm regions as expansive, as those in the 20th century as a whole, during any period in medieval times… [emphasis mine]

Northern Hemisphere Temperature Variability

Comment by Donald L. Engel on December 12, 2016 at 11:35am

Ok, Joan.  We can use your chart.  It shows exactly the same as the chart I posted on page 10 of this thread (Vostok Ice Core Data).  The period between each of the four previous peaks is about 120,000 years.  Since man was not on this earth during those previous  peak periods , what caused them?  And why is it man's fault this time?

And those precipitous drops are entries into the next ice age.  Sooo....Maybe we better hope global warming is man's fault.  The earth cannot grow enough food to feed the world's population during an ice age. 

Comment by Joan Denoo on December 12, 2016 at 6:21am

Donald, you can't expect us to get off the climate change topic when the issue is not settled. As long as you and others deny humans play a part in changes taking place in the climate we will continue to supply you with new information. All the top temperatures that I see have a precipitous drop. 

Want to wait around and see who wins this dispute?

I would be more proactive observer, skilled  
 

Comment by Donald L. Engel on December 11, 2016 at 1:21am

Ruth, on page 10 of this thread, I posted a chart showing 420,000 years of climate history.  It shows that we are coming out of the last of 5 warming periods.  And while we are nearing the temperature peaks attained by the previous four warming periods.  We aren't there yet.  Mankind was not on this earth duiring the previous four warming periods, and yet they warmed along the same general trend as what we are experiencing today.  How can you possibly blame mankind for the warming cycle this time?  Our Industrial Revolution would be about the width of a hair at the end of that chart.  Can we please get off the "Climate Change" routine?  Mankind has nothing to do with it.

I am for clean air.  I am against acid rain, smog, and all the other atmospheric problems that are bothering our cities.  And we are working toward electric cars which will help tremendously in this regard.  If you look up the ingredients of smog, you will see that CO2 isn't even mentioned.  From Wikipedia:

Smog is a type of air pollutant. The word "smog" was coined in the early 20th century as a portmanteau of the words smoke and fog to refer to smoky fog, its opacity, and odour.[1] The word was then intended to refer to what was sometimes known as pea soup fog, a familiar and serious problem in London from the 19th century to the mid 20th century. This kind of visible air pollution is composed of nitrogen oxides, sulfur oxides, ozone, smoke or particulates among others (less visible pollutants include carbon monoxide, CFCs and radioactive sources).[citation needed] Human-made smog is derived from coal emissions, vehicular emissions, industrial emissions, forest and agricultural fires and photochemical reactions of these emissions.

That is the stuff I want the EPA to clean up.

Comment by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on December 10, 2016 at 7:47pm

I'm a bit confused, Donald. You're for the EPA protecting clean air and water, unless it's a global scale threat from climate change? Is that because one country alone can't completely combat global threats? Are you in favor of an international effort to counter such threats, like the Paris Accord? But EPA actions directly impact our ability to do our part in cooperative actions.

Comment by Donald L. Engel on December 10, 2016 at 4:24pm

No, Ruth.  Just that part that concerns "man-made" global warming.  I'm sure you're not surprised at that, since it is what I've been saying for the last year, or two.

I'm all for keeping the air clean.

 

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