Comment

Comment by tom sarbeck on December 18, 2016 at 12:59am

A US senator once told an environmental group I was active with that after about six years a reform group needs reform.
The reason was that as a group's leaders gain skills they separate themselves from the other members and become an elite.
Don't be discouraged by that; simply accept it as a reality of politics.

Comment by Joan Denoo on December 18, 2016 at 12:39am

Please forgive my double sentences and paragraphs. I vow to be more careful in future posts. 

Comment by tom sarbeck on December 18, 2016 at 12:18am

Daniel, I appreciate the effort your Problem-Solution post below required. I was hyper-active in the 1970s and 1980s (less active since then) and saw the elites of both parties abandon their base.
IMO the Repubs exploited their based more cruelly than the Dems did, and when the rebellion came Trump was far more the demagogue than Sanders was.
How does your voter-led revolt differ from the revolt Bernie Sanders led?

Comment by Joan Denoo on December 18, 2016 at 12:12am

Daniel, Joseph P., and Ruth, I very much like the tone of this discussion. Yes, it is time to listen to the wage-worker, the small business person, and to those who pay taxes while seeing the One Percenters take advantage of our tax system. Yes, it is time to start a tax-paying, voting person revolt against the tyranny of corruption in our governments. 

Yes, it is time to listen to the wage-worker, the small business person, and to those who pay taxes while seeing the One Percenters take advantage of our tax system. Yes, it is time to start a tax-paying, voting person revolt against the tyranny of corruption in our governments. 

Yes, it is time to start a tax-paying, voting person revolt against the tyranny of corruption in our governments. 

Yes, it is time to confront people who make uninformed statements and challenge those who spread false news. A face-palm button is in order to facilitate this action. 

Yes, ridicule is a valid response to some individuals and groups, as is to react, reply, rejoin, challenge, inform, explain, question, retort, inspire, advise, describe, doubt, counter, discuss, and to respond with cynicism, pessimism, and skepticism.

I expect and welcome and respect those who respond to my writings with cynicism, pessimism, and skepticism. The old CPS responses. 

 

Comment by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on December 17, 2016 at 11:24pm

I see low information voters as having been invisibly shaped by the algorithms in their communication media. See Oliver Luckett's short video in this discussion. It's not just lack of information, willful ignorance, or being tricked by astroturfing and fake news. We are all manipulated in sophisticated ways to which we are blind. Atheist Nexus is a safe haven from this silo effect in one sense, but we're also a self-selected information bubble too. I ordered his book. Will know more after I've read it.

Comment by Joseph P on December 17, 2016 at 11:01pm

Well yeah, of course this site is an echo chamber, in respect to the vast majority of issues.  This is a safe place for ridicule, when we need to vent steam, sort of like what we do over in Atheist Humor.

In person or in whatever sort of personal interaction, I generally go for an attempt at education.  It's the same as when a young-Earth creationist comes out with an amazingly ignorant and idiotic question that they think is a brilliant zinger, such as, "If humans came from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys?"

My response ... after the face-palm ... is usually something like, "It's not monkeys; it's apes.  And we are apes, and there are many species of ape.  Now, would you like a crash-course on how speciation works, so you can learn why what you just said is so silly, or am I wasting my time?"

A political discussion, with someone who said something similarly silly within the political realm, would probably follow similar lines.

Ridicule is only a last resort and is only useful if there are watchers who are on the fence.

Comment by Daniel W on December 17, 2016 at 10:48pm

Problem:  Low information voters determine election in unfavorable manner.

Solution:

(a) demean them.  ridicule them.  judge them.  then they will voter better next time.

(b) give money to democrats so they can use the money to make more calls to collect more money so they can use the money to make more calls to collect more money so...

(c) talk about them in internet echo chambers where hello... hello... hello... hello.... we are so much better than they are.

(d) Strategize how to turn them into high information voters and then implement strategy.  Understand the voters needs and address their needs, don't just manipulate them and market to them.  Really listen.  Then come up with plans, and act.

Please don't feel that I'm trying to be offensive.  I'm not at all.  I actually felt your pain before the election was over, because I really worried it would go the way it did. The polls just felt too...  I don't know, maybe smug.  All eggs in one basket.  I don't mean to cause offense, at all, and I feel the same disappointment and fear that everyone feels.  But that's not enough.  It's time for the ranks of loyal yellow dog democrats, myself included, to revolt.  The Democrats have to listen to their natural base, the working people across the country who are hurting.  That's all races, sexes, sexual orientations, eye colors, piercing status, and number of tattoos.  Democrats need to stop talking down to their voters and start listening to them.  Stop being elitist and return to being real people of the people, and for the people.

I'm really thinking it's time to start a voter led revolt like what happened in the Republican Party.  Can't call it Tea Party - no no no no no no.  I don't have a name.  Yellow Dog Democrats United YDDU or something.  We need to start a Facebook group, use social media to organize, tell the Democrat party, we will not support you, not give you money - where did that get them this time? - not be polite to their rude telephone propagandists and solicitors an guilt mongers, but tell them to do their fucking job.  No more political dynasties, no to HIllary, no to Chelsea, no to Kennedies, yes to people who work hard for their voters and fight for them.

I was called today by a Democratic phone pool, and the guy did the usual start rude, immediately interrupt with fast talking, baiting tactic "Trump is going to...." and I talked over him, and said basically the same thing.  Stop scaring up money from loyal supporters - where did that get you last time?  Start listening to the Democratic base, the working people, the farmers, the people across the country who are hurting, stop manipulating people...  he hung up. 

Comment by Joseph P on December 17, 2016 at 10:16pm

Joseph, you just insulted EVERY low-information voter who ever lived!

Good.

Comment by Loren Miller on December 17, 2016 at 10:15pm

"Low information voters?!?"  Joseph, you just insulted EVERY low-information voter who ever lived!  I'm not even certain that the sizzle-vs-steak comparison holds here, because I doubt the average Drumpf voter knows what sizzle is!

Comment by Joseph P on December 17, 2016 at 10:15pm

Oh, and I was never really a believer, as far back as I can remember ... basically as soon as I was able to sort out an actual stance on something as complex as religious belief.  It was somewhere around the age of 9 or so that I had concluded that Christianity fell into the same category as Greek and Norse mythology, to which I had been exposed at the same time as (but not actually in) kindergarten.

I didn't fall into the trap of cynicism, though.  I dove.

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