An inconsistency with the Biblical structure of Good and Evil

I came up in this through my debate with a theist (ok ok... I haven't been around all that long in the scope of atheism, but whether the idea's there or not, I did think of it. Don't jump down my throat)

My loophole in the Biblical structure is really quite short. I haven't found the theist to counter it yet. Perhaps it will take an atheist to protect theism? lol

You: tell me why evil exists
They say: Because evil is necessary for us to percieve good

You say: Well why didn't God create man to be able to percieve good without evil if he had the ability to?
Them (if they have an ounce of experience in this topic): Because good can not exist without evil. It is like light and dark. Dark is the absence of light.

You: If good and evil must be equal and opposite, then does the light control the dark? God and Satan, therefore, must be equal and opposite forces. Therefore, God is no omnipotent.
Furthermore, God could not create "free will" in Satan if he was omnibenevolent because ultimate good has not the capacity to create evil. Also, if good and evil are equal and opposite forces, Satan must have been around exactly as long as God has; no more no less.

So that's my thought. Could you check my argument for loopholes please? Thanks.

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Comment by Johnny on November 12, 2009 at 12:14am
Also, the "mind of god" argument flows beautifully into my retort against Pascal's wager.

See it here:

Man, I can't stop posting these blogs because these talks always give me new ideas to talk about. I love this site!
Comment by Johnny on November 11, 2009 at 11:54pm
Louis: LOL I never fail to get an angry scowl every time anyone pulls the "mind of god" shit.

I say: Funny... I don't claim to. I am not trying to understand God. I am trying to understand what YOU claim to JUST KNOW about god. If your god doesn't make sense then he doesn't make sense and you should become a deist or an agnostic. Funny how you are already arguing like one. Have I de-converted you?
Comment by Johnny on November 11, 2009 at 11:14pm
Also, now that I think about it... say that God isn't all-powerful (even though that already clearly rejects the bible as fallible and therefore not the perfect word of God)

Can something be all-powerful without being all-knowing? Can something be all-knowing without being all-powerful? I don't think it's possible...
Comment by Johnny on November 11, 2009 at 11:10pm
You've said that much more coherently then I've ever heard a theist say it (lots of em haven't even read the bible.. >.<)

I'm sure you can completely pick that apart yourself, but here's how I would do it:

"His initial sin was greedily wanting the worship that was rightly God's for himself."
Funny...where'd he learn greed from? Is god's creation not perfect or is god not perfectly good?

"However, as Satan alleged that humans would be better off independent from God's authority, he's been permitted to influence the earth's inhabitants."
The only reason that humans aren't the ultimate force of good is because we are a subjective creature. We can not see beyond our own perspective. God is all-knowing and therefore is able to know exactly what is good and what is not good. If he permits Satan to exist, then that must mean that Satan serves a GOOD purpose in God's plan. If free will leads to evil, then that must be GOOD too.
After that, quote Epicarus verbatim. It will lead directly into my argument because they will then try to justify why god allowing free will is good: because of the whole "good is a spectrum argument." BAM. Right back into my original argument.

And if they divert into the eventual "it will go away!" argument, then just go: "but it's here now... even if that's a jiffy (in the literal sense of the word) in God's time, then that's a jiffy of time that God's plan is not perfect. You must justify evil to make your argument valid. (cue trap door into my argument)

You started a bit earlier with the basics that I ommitted, so thanks for clearing that up! That's how I get to where I started the thread. Do you see any fault in my argument once I get there? I'd rather have the atheist make me seem dumb than the theist lol
Comment by Louis on November 11, 2009 at 11:09pm
Be careful of the 'You cannot know the mind of God' argument. Prepare the 'YOU cannot know the mind of God either' counter argument.
Comment by Johnny on November 11, 2009 at 11:00pm
no, no. That is the exact story Nate. Sorry... I left out a part of the argument. There is required: why would an omnibenevolent god create free will that would put us in danger of doing evil?

Then: because only through evil can we see good in relation.

Good clarification. This argument is under the rare occasion that one might find a theist who bothers to defend their beliefs. I've only used it twice b/c i only got that far in a debate w/ 2 people.
Comment by Nate on November 11, 2009 at 4:29pm
My former religion believes that Satan(he had a different name prior to his corruption) was created as a perfect spirit being but became evil due to his misuse of God-granted free will. His initial sin was greedily wanting the worship that was rightly God's for himself. They do not teach that God created "evil" so that we may appreciate "good". However, as Satan alleged that humans would be better off independent from God's authority, he's been permitted to influence the earth's inhabitants. They would say that the disastrous results(here they point to poverty, sickness, wars, sexual immorality, violence, etc.) vindicate God and prove that Satan's claim was false. God has permitted human suffering, even going so far as to permit the killing of his own son, to prove a point. They believe that in the future, evil will be done away with. Should any intelligent creature anywhere in the universe ever again question God's authority, there will be legal precedence for immediately destroying the rebel. In other words, in the future, the only beings that will exist are those that are using their free will in a way that's acceptable to God.

It's absurd.
Comment by Johnny on November 11, 2009 at 3:47pm
I do use that. This rant is a side branch ffrom the omnipotent one. It is the most important function of god, so it is the one I spend the most time on.



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