I'm not a great one for getting into discussions on YouTube, as the level of flaming and general BS are not what I would call conducive to intelligent discussion.  However, I found myself moved to respond to the following piece:



And here is the conversation that ensued, such as it is:


  • "If you've got the truth, you can demonstrate it. Talking doesn't prove it. SHOW people."

    -- Robert A. Heinlein

    The day someone can SHOW heaven or hell or god or whatever, I MIGHT consider adopting their position. To date, all I see is a bunch of childish wishful thinking for which I have no time. The woman rebutting the concept of a belief in heaven is UTTERLY ON POINT.

  • @me You make an interesting statement. So if on that day that someone showed you heaven/hell/god is true you "MIGHT" adopt the position...or you might not? Would you actually chose to reject the position even in the face of proof? That sounds like you're committed to your position regardless of the truth. Wouldn't that make your stance a faith based one?

  • @him I have gotten along for three score years without benefit or overt assistance of ANY deity that I am aware of. My life works AS IT IS and has worked at least reasonably well. I might well respond to such news, "Oh, god exists ... far out!" ... and go right back to doing what I was doing.

    A revelation of such a nature would break a VERY LONG CHAIN of no such evidence and no such revelation, and as such an event of this nature strikes me as unlikely in the extreme.

  • @me Fair enough. To paraphrase Paul, if there were no afterlife then he is most to be pitied amongst all men. So he'd agree with you that your life on earth may be fine without god. It's that next phase that'll not pan out for you. I realize you don't believe there is one, you better hope you're right.

  • @him References to Pascal's Wager do not bother me as: 1) there is no evidence for or against an afterlife and 2) if I WERE to believe "just in case," would such a mendacious belief fool an omniscient god (who isn't in evidence either!)? This doesn't even get into the violence, misogyny, abusive patriarchy and homophobia which is the warp and woof of the bible and at least one reason why I give it no credence.

    Myths and superstitions don't work and never have. Fact and theory DO.

  • @me I don't think it's possible for someone to become a Christian "just in case". They might claim they were, but they'd be missing the belief component. So I'd never suggest it. As for the rest, history is laden with violence, misogyny and abuse of every sort...that it's addressed in the Bible should come as no shock. Are those missing from every other book you read?

  • @him History may be laden with violence ... but when a "holy" book insists on death for a rape victim who fails to shout out loudly enough or that a rape victim marry her rapist (and has at least two egregious examples of whoring out women) then says, "believe in this and you're saved" rather than suggest the slightest degree of self-responsibility, I have a problem, not to mention the numerous contradictions contained within its pages.

    KEEP your bible. I'll keep common sense.

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Comment by Loren Miller on November 7, 2011 at 6:52pm
Oh, there's been some subsequent back-and-forth on this one, but I dealt myself out.  As I said before, too much BS and no real interest in facts there, but I seem to have gotten a few licks in.
Comment by Steph S. on November 7, 2011 at 5:24pm
Great response Loren!
Comment by Loren Miller on October 1, 2011 at 8:12am

Oooo, a NEW response from yet another theist, to wit:


-@me Hmmm. Have you not perhaps noticed that everything you've written here is an absurd caricature of the Bible?! You need to read serious scholarly books by academics schooled in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, etcetera, as well as the the other hermeneutical tools necessary for understanding these ancient texts. I've spent the last 6 years studying in some of the best universities in the uk and I just don't recognize anything you've just written about the Bible. Absurd.



@newguy "an absurd caricature," eh. Try this one example (among HUNDREDS) on for size:

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

Comment by Loren Miller on September 29, 2011 at 6:05am

He's apparently gone silent, George, at least for the moment, and just as well.  If he has any intelligence at all, he's realized that he stepped in it with that remark about violence "addressed in the bible."  Further, it's a nice little ego-boost that my last comment has gotten voted up by seven readers.

I was half-expecting him to pull some crap about the old testament being obsoleted by the new, but then I'd have Matthew 5:17-20 to throw in his face.

Comment by George on September 29, 2011 at 2:36am

(him): As for the rest, history is laden with violence, misogyny and abuse of every sort...that it's addressed in the Bible should come as no shock. Are those missing from every other book you read?"

His ignorance of the bible is pretty shocking here.  The bible is simply "addressing" these issues?  


Comment by Steph S. on September 28, 2011 at 9:27pm
Good job Loren! Thanks for telling me about your blog. Has he written since?
Comment by AgeOfAtheists14 on September 28, 2011 at 8:29pm
whoa that's a riot!



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